Calling Col.CoolJ

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fangorn:

Philistine,

Well, let's just say that this case is even more hairer than those I've seen in college

The big problem is, what CCJ has one (if he did it) may not be a crime in Oz, which means that, even if that's a crime under US state or federal law, he can't be sued. Anyway, I really doubt that he could be extraditaded as he's an Australian citizen. Imagine an case that's what is a crime under a state law and not in another, as the gunman example. If that's not a crime to that state, can he be sued in the other one?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you wanna start extriditing everybody that has a warez or pirated copy, you better start getting ready for the MILLIONS of Chinese that are guilty of that. The fact of the matter is that they can't even sell a legal copy in China because just across the street a pirated copy sells for $1.

I mean JEEZ, the man has been busting his balls creating excellent textures for CM and he tries to get a little headstart on full version stuff and you all just start screaming at him for wanting to get a jump on things. Very sad, very sad indeed!

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Be sure and check out my texture mods on CMHQ.

Dave "Ol' Blood & Maximus Butticus" Molinarolo

[Fangorn]

Maximus,

Hey, I never said I want to see CCJ extraditated

I was just pointing out that I doubt he could be extraditated as per Oz's law.

[Philistine]

Actaully, my point with the smiley was that I didn't think there was any way someone who downloaded warez would be extradited. Of course you're right that most countries would refuse to extradite a person whose actions didn't constitute a crime in that country, but that doesn't affect the ability of the asking country to prosecute if the person ever comes to the country.

In any event, as it stands right now, although almost certainly illegal in most countries, the laws are generally not enforced against individuals who aren't selling or providing copies as enforcement would be a nightmare.

I think I'll stop posting to this threat. While I enjoy debating legal issues (hey, its my job), I certainly don't want this whole issue to become my "contribution" to the CM community. But thanks for the insights, everbody.

--Philistine

[Hakko Ichiu]

It seems the lawyers are out in force on this topic. To my mind, this is good, because the more time lawyers spend arguing on this board, the less damage they can do to the economy. I am, in fact, thinking of starting a foundation that will ship gratis copies of CM to all members of the plaintiffs' bar -- I leave the likely benefits of this enterprise to your imagination.

Having now offended every lawyer on the board, a legal question:

To what extent is d/ling pirated software equivalent to receiving stolen property??

From a moral standpoint, I can see no difference in using warez/appz and buying a Rolex watch that "just fell off the back of a truck", or even receiving same as a gift in full knowledge of its provenance.

Comments eagerly anticipated.

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Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[Jadayne]

Um, Fionn, I may be a bit nitpicky here, but what really is the difference between what you’re doing and what CCJ did.

According to the letter of the law (as it is probably clearly stated on the CD’s you are burning), you are not allowed to copy the materials on the CD whether you purchased it, borrowed it, or DLed it from napster. You are copying it onto your computer for your own use, true, but the correct line of action (according to the law) is that you sort out your problems with your computer -not illegally copy the files on the CD. Admittedly, that is not convenient, but your hardware problems are not Sony or WarnerBros problem.

As far as I can gather by reading this thread (I don’t know the history so I am prepared to be corrected), CCJ purchased the software from BTS. He also had “problems” (in this case the software didn’t arrive in a timely manner), so he used a less than legal means to continue his work -ie. downloading the file to make mods for the CM community. Again, this is not BTS’s problem. The correct line of action is to wait for the CD to arrive via snail mail.

I would imagine that if this were a Sony forum and not a BTS one, the reactions to your CD burning would be as vocal if not more vocal (especially with this whole napster affair going on) as your reactions to what CCJ did.

When it comes down to the “letter of the law” then CCJ did bad. But so do you every time you copy copyrighted material onto your computer. Reactions to such matters are totally subjective and we can’t expect everyone to see every issue as entirely black and white. Need I bring up such topics as the speed limit, pot smoking, underage drinking, downloading MP3’s, etc.

I think CCJ's biggest fault was stupidity. He knew what a hot topic pirating is in this community he did anyway and then let it be known he did it. Tantamount to having a few drinks before a Mothers Against Drunk Driving meeting.

[Fionn]

1. It's not CD burning.. It is CD ripping and done purely due to the fact that my computer can't play audio CDs cause the CD drive is f'ed.

2. CCJ received STOLEN GOODS. I do not.

3. In so doing CCJ ENCOURAGED more theft. I do no such thing.

I'm fully up to admitting that when I tape a TV show I'm in breach of the law ( as are we all) and that my ripping of songs off my own CDs due to hardware problems might be questionable ALTHOUGH I'm quite sure one could argue a case whereby my ripped MP3s from my own CDs are analogous to a "backup copy" since the music industry's CDs do not work with my CD-Rom drive ( a piece of hardware with which I could reasonable expect they should work).

It all gets very tangled and legalese.

However I feel the CCJ case is simple.

1. He received stolen goods.

2. By doing so he encouraged further theft of CM.

3. He did a MAJOR breach of trust.

4. I know I'm even more spooked by the thought of how many warez sites would have had betas of CM if CCJ had been given a beta of CM2. That really scares me. He could have destroyed BTS with his attitude if they'd shown him a little trust.

My biggest issue with him is the 4th one. I also don't exactly like that he fails to admit what he has done. At least OsinO admits what he did.. Colin continues to hide behind smoke and lies.

[Fangorn]

Philistine,

Please keep posting, the legal issue here is very interesting.

Hakko Ichiu,

It depends (as always) on the legal system you are talking about. Some systems treat software as physical property, others as

intellectual property. If so, it can't be "stole", as it is not physical (but it's still a crime, just a different one), and d/l can't be treated as it was "receiving stolen property" (again, another crime). YLMMV.

[:USERNAME:]

God this all stinks to high heaven and I wish BTS could summon up a little responsibility and/or class and shut this down and warn anyone not to start it up again. They have no qualms about shutting down my threads and warning others not to bring up the subject(s) and they should do the same here.

Imagine catching a child stealing sugar and whipping him even though his only intent was to bake you a surprise cookie.

You "****house lawyers" should shut up up. I am sick of bad analogys and the rightousness here.

Lewis

[The DesertFox]

Hmmm,

Methinks the problem here with CoolColJ using a Warez version on CM for a limited time does have some parallels.

Isn´t it, from the juristic point of view [not morally] the same as if I mailorder a Music CD and pay for it and at the same time borrow an identical Music CD from a friend or rent one from a CD-rental-shop for 24 hours to record it to tape and hear the music from tape until my paid CD arrives ?

So to my understanding the same copyright laws should apply here as they do, if I make a copy of a Videotape that I hired for 24 hours in a Video-rental-shop.

BTW: I have to pay for renting the Music-CD or the Video tape. Is the Owner of the shop breaking laws by giving his customers a copyrighted copy of a CD or Videotape although he knows that the customer can illegally copy the CD/tape for personal use and thus avoiding buying a legal copy at full prize ?

Wasn´t the introduction of DAT-Recorders back then initiating the same copyright discussions as the introduction of CD-Recorders did ?

I´m really interested to hear what our lawyers say to these points.

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891

[Gregory Deych]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>However I feel the CCJ case is simple.

1. He received stolen goods.

2. By doing so he encouraged further theft of CM.

3. He did a MAJOR breach of trust.

4. I know I'm even more spooked by the thought of how many warez sites would have had betas of CM if CCJ had been given a beta of CM2. That really scares me. He could have destroyed BTS with his attitude if they'd shown him a little trust.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's examine this in detail, shall we?

1) Arguable. Certainly, one cannot say that purchaser of stolen goods has a title to them. CCJ did, by buying a copy from BTS.

2) Not even close. No pirate cares how many people download their product. It's just not something that's tracked by anybody, except in reverse cases, when users overclog the site.

3) Perhaps. I cannot speak for Steve or Charles here.

4) You are you implying that CCJ would supply his copy to the warez sites. Do you have any grounds for that assertion? Like somebody said, you should be carefull wether your statements constitute libel. After all, if he sues you in Australian court, it's YOU who'll have to prove your innocence, not vice versa (I'm presuming that Australia has the same laws on libel as Britain).

[OsinO]

The only thing im wondering about the premise of Fionn's argument is that if hes so clean in his warez-history (not ever downloading/uploading/installing it), how does he know anything about the warez scene. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>He would give all the warez sites the beta<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If you have never done any warezing how would you even know he can do this? Let alone if its possible. (Though I know it is). And even if you say that you havent done it but know a lot about it, there is still a lot you dont know until you actually start doing it.

Now im not bashing you or anything, like I said before im just curiouse about your premise and you saying all the things he could have done without (possibly) knowing anything about warezing (if you havent done it at all).

Bring on the flames :0

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¤§ïѤ

[vcents]

Lock this down now.

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

Oh my god.....this can'b be real. Everybody just shutup about all this stuff.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In so doing CCJ ENCOURAGED more theft<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fionn, if I remember correctly you *publicly* called him on this, by deducing that he MUST be using warez, since CM could not have yet arrived where he lives. Now it is a severe stretch to say that he was encouraging piracy and copying, when he was apparently keeping it to himself. Until, you made it common knowledge, it wasnt so much of an issue.

Now we have a person who is actually LISTED IN THE MANUAL as a contributing artist, that seems to be cast out of the "community".

I am not arguing the right/wrong, legal/illegal, but I really dont believe that there is one person who has CM right now who didnt pay, as result of his download.

Now I enjoy your contributions to this forum, board, CMMC, and I hold no hostility towards you at all. We just need to get past this whole irrelevant thing as soon as possible...

Oh, I agree that he shouldnt have done it, and it was silly to post a message exposing yourself tote notion that you have warez.

LOCK DOWN PLZ

[This message has been edited by *Captain Foobar* (edited 08-02-2000).]

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

4. I know I'm even more spooked by the thought of how many warez sites would have had betas of CM if CCJ had been given a beta of CM2. That really scares me. He could have destroyed BTS with his attitude if they'd shown him a little trust.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have absolutely no basis for this argument.

How can you possibly be so certain he'd spread copies without

a shred of evidence?

On the contrary, there's proof he's against warez, he did

report the site he found CM from to BTS.

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Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of

our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

[Tobe]

Downloading a pirated piece of software and being a major supplier of pirated software are two EXTREMELY different things. Plus the guy did pay for the game for gawds sake, this is such a trivial issue.

Anyways I say let he who has never copied a game, music cd, or movie from a friend in his/her life cast the first stone... - Why isn't anyone throwing anything???

[JoshK]

I am not here to get in on a lynch mob. However, this issue does bother me. Creative people (musicians and software programmers in this case) should expect to be able profit from their own intellectual property. Ultimately, if this is threatened, we all lose because there will be a disincentive to create.

Authors own the rights to their works, and have exclusive power to sell them or not. Clearly, selling or distributing stolen property (Napster songs or warez software) is far worse than d/ling it. However, it bothers me that people think that by downloading they are committing a victimless crime. What's more, just because "everyone" is doing it, and it is impossible to be caught, too few people seem to be bothered to do what is right. Hell, one women in my office justifies stealing music from Napster by arguing that music companies should make individual songs available to d/l so she does not have to buy a whole album, then she wouldn't steal them.

[Guest Pillar]

Since there seems to be a lot of interest -- and confusion -- I will clear up my one and only post.

I had two points:

1) BTS is not comparable to a company that sold someone a good and then refused to give the customer that good. Why? Because the contract at the beginning of the purchase explicitly stated that the method of delivery was shipping by USPS.

2) Morally, Piracy is Theft. Stealing a man's labour and stealing a man's idea's are the same thing philosophically. The law may have different technicalities in dealing with each crime in different coutnries, but my point was an ethical one and therefore that is irrelevent.

And finally, I would like to add one more comment:

This thread should not be wasting time considering whether piracy is theft, legally -or- morally.

What you should be discusing is whether thievery is ethical under certain contexts. That is a philosophic discussion, not a legal one.

[Moon]

These seem to be good last words... let's leave it at that and change the world another time.

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"An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers."

- Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision