Cherry Picking (Wargamers Topic)

[Guest Scott Clinton]

From the on-going "Gamey Recon" thread:

(ed)

ooops! I was not real clear: The below was posted by Steve.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In Combat Mission 2 we will offer the option to play games using a "rarity" factor. This factor will change unit costs to reflect how common it was to see them on the battlefield. For example, something like the Puma is totally overused by players. There was less than 200 of these vehicles built, but they show up in probably every 3rd battle So the rarity feature in CM2 would make them far less likely to be purchasable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I for one, am very glad to hear this.

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 09-26-2000).]

[Chupacabra]

I'd also love to see either a rarity factor modeled directly in the game, or even a paper list saying 'rare, rare, common, unusual, whatever.' I can expound tediously for hours about why and how the war was started (I may be wrong, but I can sure talk your ear off )but I know virtually nil about what units were actually fielded during the war and in which combinations they were fielded. My knowledge is pretty much limited to 'Panthers are neat' type stuff. But I'd love to be able to play using forces which are somewhat close to reality. So, erm, yeah. Lists would be neat!

------------------

Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[Oompa-Loompa]

As a newbie, I too (like Jaded)have never mixed nationalities in force selection. However, I am worried about becomming an unintentional cherry picker(CPer). So far, I have relied on Fionn's 75/76 rules posted in the PBEM section of Jagdcarcajou's Cm Recon site (http://members.home.net/jagdcarcajou/). BTW--A big personal thanks to both of them.

To a neophyte like me, the guidelines seem like a good way to reduce the chance I become an unintentional CPer. But I have a few questions, I hope that those of you with more knowledge can address for me.

1)How do those 75/76 standards appear to all of you? Do they seem both reasonable and realistic? Can I safely assume that by following such guidelines my CPer liklihood will be reduced?

2)Have any of you (newbies to grognards) referenced those specific guidelines in your force selection? If so, how did such limits affect your gameplay experience? Were games more enjoyable and/or balanced when both players followed the guidelines?

------------------

"Do not needlessly endanger your lives until I give you the signal"

Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Frankly, I don't like the rules of thumb you mention. They appear to me to be slanted toward the Germans. But that is my personal opinion.

As for if they will help reduce "Cherry Picking", perhaps, perhaps not.

But note the example Steve gave above (i.e. the Puma). It would qualify in both of those rules yet there were (IIRCC) only 199 produced in the entire war.

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 09-26-2000).]

[M Hofbauer]

Much harder to take on those pesky Shermans if you only have a Marder III! Much harder to take out that Marder III if you only have Sherman M4s

Captures the perceived, deep-rooted gut feeling of us players who always think "the other one has got it easier" perfectly. What truth and wisdom. Right on target, Steve!

as for a CM2 rarity formula, couldn't we have the game make available only a certain force pool from which the player can choose his units? with randomization factored in, if there was a 5% chance for, say, a KingTiger to be in the game based on settings, well, then roughly in 1 out of 20 games it would become available. The number of Pz IV available could vary from 4 to 6 etc., and the player can still choose which forces he wants for the QB out of the limited pool available.

------------------

"Say i think u all need to chill out." (GAZ_NZ)

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Otherwise there is no solution for Cherry Picking except the private list of Cherry pickers that gets passed around by players like me and Abbott.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just curious, what solution does this list provide?

[IntelWeenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Our solution to Atypical force creation was to make point costs higher depending on hor rare the vehicle was for that time period. Unfortunately, this was shelved for CM1 because we didn't have time to implement a well researched and tested system. However... there is CM2 coming up

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about taking this line of thought one step further? The rarity factor could be further adjusted depending on the type of QB being fought. That way, you would see more recon vehicles and infantry than übertanks, heavy artillery and engineers in a meeting engagement or probe. Likewise, how many ACs would you expect to see in an assault?

------------------

Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses.

-Dudley Do-right

[Philistine]

With regard to the rarity cost increase, would it be possible to also show the original cost in the purchase screen (perhaps in parenthesis).

I often use the cost of a unit as a rough approximation of combat effectiveness (particularly for vehicles which I am not familiar with, being, at best, a semi-grog).

It might also be nice in the "no holds barred" ahistorical setting to show either the rarity cost in parenthesis or some other indication of rarity, just as a reality check when buying in a quick battle.

Also, under the "rarity rules" for victory points calculation, will destroying the rare unit give the enhanced value or the base value?

I think I'd prefer M. Hofbauer's thought of factoring the rarity into the game through availability, although I recognize this would probably force a change in E-Mail protocol to prevent the person setting up from just quitting until he found particular units available. Also, it does decrease flexibility, so I'm not entirely sold. I am very glad to see it addressed in some manner. It just keeps getting better and better...

Just a couple of random thoughts.

--Philistine

[Slapdragon]

Solution for keeping track of cherry picking:

This is just a non-game solution: ie. Don't play Cherry Pickers. And here, I do not mean Cherry Pickers who make one mistake, but relentless cherry pickers. The type of people, who as Scott say, wont play anything but Germans in the open, but get mad when allies have air power. If you know who they are, you do not play them on ladders. It is not like you have to play everyone who offers you a fight.

In many cases this list helps. Reading in here you get to know who is on top of things (I would say like 90%) and who has severe personality problems. I met about by this list,. and play Scott Clinton because of it.

For people new to Wargames -- I would advise letting an older wiser head kick your butt a time or two (worked for me) because you learn more from getting it kicked than kicking it. Also, just ask questions. Soon -- you are the one kicking old timers butt, and having mine recently kicked by a newbie, I am happy to say I learned something also!!!

For realism, again, just ask questions, or let the old timer pick your force. They wont cheat (much - I mean really, 12 H.39s is not so bad!) and you can see the force they see as reasonable. Or: have a third person choose your forces to balance.

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Hey I cherry pick too! I took two Pumas in a recent PBEM game...Hell, thats over 2% of the total production of that vehicle!

But seriously, I do love the King Tiger and I perhaps take it a wee bit too much. But my reasoning is simple: I have no love for the PzIV at all and have had miserable luck with my Stugs...

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Guest Big Time Software]

M.Hofbauer, we are planning to have SOME sort of system that would allow "rare" units to come into a QuickBattle without having the player needing to spend all his points just to get, for example, a Puma. I mean, if a Puma is 300 points due to rarity, who on Earth would put their limited points towards it instead of buying, say, 2 PzIVs? The method for this has not been decided, but some sort of "hey, you got lucky!" system where the player will be allowed to purchase normally expensive vehicles at rock bottom prices We are planning on this system being done on an individual unit basis, which would make it even more varried.

IntelWeenie, the plan is to have things balanced according to force type. This way you won't be seeing heavy armor for a mechanized battle (for example). Instead, the German player is going to have to figure out how to use that Marder II if he wants to rack up the Sherman kills

Scott, don't feel so bad. Another 2% of the total production just met its death against me in a PBEM game I am playing. In fact, the 2nd one made a big boom about a half hour ago

Steve

[Slapdragon]

Not much luck with your Alligators or Shermans either it seems.

I too used to pick Pumas to often -- no more. Your game is the last one I will be picking Puma's in/ Luckily, I only got 10, one for each Panther.

[kunzler]

Well, if use of historical forces is something that can be toggled on in CM2, could it not be handled just like current costing is done, but be calculated in addition to but independent of current points cost?

For example, a player who gets 2000 points allotted could also get, say 100 rarity points. The player could expend the entire 100 points on one King Tiger, which would also cost the usual points from the standard points pool, or the player could purchase two Panthers, which have a rarity cost of 40 each, for instance, and then have to select all Stugs, which have a rarity cost of say, 5. Standard infantry would have no rarity points, for instance. Once the allotted rarity points are used up, the player would have the option to select only no-rarity-cost units such as standard infantry.

CM would have to keep track of another list in addition to infantry points, support points, etc., and would simply keep another column on the force selection screen. Again, though, the one difference would be that rarity points would be independant of regular points.

In fact, maybe rarity points could be adjustable in increments, from totally ahistorical, with unlimited rarity points, to semi-historical, to tight historical, with a descending allotment of points for each selection. This could be a setup option in quick battles, like weather, date, etc.

Again, the rarity points would not be part of the standard calculation, but would be an additional parameter. Players who find rarity points too tedious or difficult, or what not would simply default to the totally ahistorical category.

Any comments, questions, flames?

Edited because attorneys should know better than to leave typos.

[This message has been edited by kunzler (edited 09-26-2000).]

[Combatboy]

I think if I want to buy a King Tiger I should be allowed to. Why is everyone down on the best tank in the game? Those Puma's are not any good for anything, but I think the rest of the Germans rock!

[Slapdragon]

Kunzler: You make a great point. Some sort of conditional historical point system that you can choose or not would be a nice touch.

[This message has been edited by Slapdragon (edited 09-26-2000).]

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

No-one is trying to stop you from buying a King Tiger, Combatboy.

IF you want to play them, than they are trying to keep you from buying a King Tiger every time, rain or shine.

Since both people play voluntarily, they are perfectly justified to say what type of game they will play. If you don't agree with their notion of what will make for a good PBEM, than its pretty easy to find an opponent you do agree with.

[Jagdwyrm]

I liked CC3 system with historical rarity on...Units that were good were expensive and also not many available...you could buy a Jagdpanther and go to buy your 2nd and one would not be available. Also to Abbot I know i cherry picked a Churchill our last battle !Bad Jagdwyrm! . I would have went more historical if you would have said so

[This message has been edited by Jagdwyrm (edited 09-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Jagdwyrm (edited 09-26-2000).]

[Slapdragon]

Perhaps another solution is a log progression or something (seriously).

1st rare tank: regular price.

2nd rare tank: regular price times x

3rd rare tank: regular price time x(2)

And so on.

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SF:

was directed at Slappy, but until rereading it I didn't notice how sarcastic that sounded, so much to Peng's displeasure let me throw in a smilie or two <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL this SF.

Kitty

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Well, of all the ideas for implementing rarity, I think I like kunzler's best.

It may be a little complicated for some people to keep track of two sets of points, but it can't be any worse than trying to plan your purchases when the costs change with each purchase. And if it is to complex, the players can always turn it off.

The 'Close Combat system' was okay, but it could hose you sometimes when you went into battle with bad luck and had nothing but PzIIIs and the other guy comes in with a KV...or two.

Nope, kunzler's idea is head and shoulders above that IMO.

------------------

Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Combatboy]

OK, I reread the posts and I feel stupid. You are talking about Internet Games. Thanks for being nice to me *Captain Foobar*.

Now, I am taking this from another thread, but on the King Tiger thread they are talking about how weak the 88mm cannon is. If it is so weak, why is anyone worried about facing a tank with it? Now I am not going to drag that stuff in here (those guys talking about the King Tiger do not take kindly to criticism and this seems a much better group here) but they say it isn't very powerful in the game and that BTS messed it up on purpose (you got me why), but maybe they did it just so people would be able to use King Tigers and things without messing up the game.

Does this effect this Cherry Picking stuff?

[KiwiJoe]

I always mix my forces when playing allies because no1 eva sets the selection tab to 1 country. I dont see anything wrong with it, i have brit paras fighting right next to yanky 45 squads supported with churchills and over watched by a jumbo 76. Ive played 18 PBEMS and havent had 1 person complain. The only thing I'd like changed is some of the tank pricing. Whats are the exact factors that are used to calculate price? I mean a JagDTiger for 246 vs a M4A3 for 120. Seems a bit off to me considering the man hours to make a JDT, the production capicity and resources of the USA etc. You should be able to buy AT LEAST 3 standard Shermans for the cost of that beast. The current pricing seems to favour the better tanks... 90% of PBEMS are 1500 point (ish)combined force. Thats 450 to spend on tanks. Kinda forces you to buy a super tank when you cant get enough extra numbers of standard types to be able to perform proper flanking. Ive only played 2 games were my enemy hasnt picked a super tank. Id like to see Panzer IV's and Sherman 75's reduced in price. Sub 100 me thinks.

[GriffinCheng+]

I heard somebody has his QB oppoment sending over 15 flamwthowers at him in a foggy night . That was bad

I propose these:

1. Agree over the parameters used in generating QB -- espeically on the type of force composition (combined arms/armored/etc) and nationality (US/UK/Canadian/etc)

2. Use "Random" on force selection most of the time.

3. Or may be, BTS would add special pools like "75-rules" or "unit templates" to QB selection

4. If the players really want to choose units on their own, add rarity factors to the system.

5. Play only with reputable PBEMers (like me )

I know it may be hard to implement or they may not fend off all cherry-pickers.

My $.02.

Griffin.

------------------

"+" is just the beginning. Expect to see "GriffinCheng76", "GriffinCheng(105)" or "GriffinChengA3E8" more should Forum problems occur again

[Guest Big Time Software]

Remember folks... this will be an OPTIONAL part of CM2, no matter what form we finally settle on

A system like what Kunzler described is, in fact, one of the ideas on the table. I called the extra points "Wildcard Points" that could be applied to specific purchases based on rarity. However, we have a very rough idea for something that would come up with nearly the same degree of flexibility and "realism", but would be a lot more simple.

The rough system we are thinking of basically would "roll" to see what degree of rareness the particular vehicle will have for that particular battle. So you KT fans might find that you still can't swing the cost of a KT, but WOW! Look how "cheap" that Jagdtiger is

Combatboy, even though the KT's gun is weaker in CM than some people think it should be (we obviously disagree with that point of view ), it is still the most devistating tank mounted weapon in Combat Mission. Only the 128mm mounted on the Jagdtiger packs more of a punch. So... whatever the case might be about the real penetration power of its 88, the King Tiger is still the most powerfull tank in the game.

One reason for having rarity in CM2 is to force people (through their initial choice of course) to actually use the other vehicles and weapons that are in the game. Sheesh... one would think that if we shipping CM with nothing but Tigers and Pershings nobody would have noticed

Steve

P.S. We laugh at anybody that criticizes CM for having "too few" vehicle types. Heck, people don't use half of what is in there as it is!

[Mess Kit]

Ya know, for my 2 cents, I say play random units every time. Shopping should be a skill best left to the fairer gender and thus has little place in a game simulating manly men doing manly things in a

manly manner.

Although, come to think of it, purchasing your own units may be a good way to get your Significant Other interested in, or at least more understanding of, CM. Hmmmm. I bet those crafty guys at BTS had this in mind all along...

;~)

------------------

"...Pleasant is it also to behold great encounters of warfare arrayed over the plains, with no part of yours in the peril." - Lucretius