Perkl Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 Downloaded the demo, tried it. Loved it. Now I am seriously considering about buying the game when it comes out. First, though, I'd like to ask from people that have tried the demo a lot more than I have: what were the worst problems that you encountered during the game? My worst problems were not quite being able to discern how fast casualties were accumulating in a unit. Especially with enemy units this was a problem. I would have liked a small graphic representation of casualty occurring during playback, or left to ground. Maybe this could be optional? The unit pathfinding was a bit erratic at times. It would be a lot easier to find out how many men were left in a squad if the amount of men was correct. This could be optional, as computers become steadily more powerful and this game has the potential to be in my hard drive for years to come. Is there a "next"-button to start from A0 and go in order through the units? Probably is, just did not find it with my fast test. These are just minor things. The game has awful lot of potential, it has a sound basic system of play and loads of possibilities for customization and creation of additional scenarios. It has the potential to become a true classic into which future wargames are compared. Alone the turn system of 60 seconds is something long awaited. I'd like to hear from you what were the worst things in the demo. I could only find these very minor points. ------------------ Janne Nordström Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argie Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 If you press the "+" key, you go to the next unit. The reverse with the "-" key. I think the other feature yoy request was discussed a long time ago (wait for guachi links soon . I think that the casualty track feature could be a breach of FOW. Look at the hotkeys menu in the game. Ariel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeterNZ Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 I must spring to the defence of CM a little firstly, to cycle through units, try the + and - keys on the numberpad. Very effective. Another nice key is the / on the number pad which switches your view 180 degrees making some movement a little quicker. Um, as for casualties, it's supposed to be a little fuzzy. The idea is you're not a total god but the commander, so i kinda like having to keep an eye on my troops, feels more 'realistic'.. kinda like 'radioing in' to see how they're doing "well jimmy's lost a leg.. and.. oo there goes bob's head!".. sure god-like views etc etc are hardly realistic, but this isn't a worry in my mind. For units under fire i generally watch the movie through.. then check each one for casualties, click click click, rewind the movie and maybe watch to see what happened in detail. Unit pathfinding a problem? Hmm.. never had a single 'error' in my mind, what happened to ya? And anyway, the AI has been souped up since the beta demo so you're unlikely to have any major problems. displaying all the soldiers is well beyond the capacity of any commercially available pc or system at this present time i believe. Something for CM5 maybe Either way, hit 'search' and there's heaps of threads there that go into it in more detail. Anyway, hope that's answered some questions. PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 Sir, I would HIGHLY suggest you base your decision to purchase the game based on the upcoming Gold Demo due to come out in May (this demo will be based on the final code for the actual game itself, not Beta code). I think many many things have changed since the original Beta demo came out nearly 6 months ago. Many "problems" have been fixed and many additions/improvements have been made. CM is a much different game now than what you are seeing in the Beta demo you are currently playing. Mike D aka Mikester [This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 03-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perkl Posted March 31, 2000 Author Share Posted March 31, 2000 Ok, cycling through the units is a rocking feature. I tend to lose the little spotters in the woods. If the fuzziness about unit cover is intentional, I can live with that. Might even be cool in the long run. Had some problems with the German halftracks in the Last Defence-scenario. They tended to drive in each others way and when this happened, there would be much confusion about the direction where each vehicle should continue. One of them would do a 360 degree spin and end up at the final location almost a minute later. Displaying all the soldiers at one time is not by any means necessary, it would just be fun. The logic why this is not done is valid, cant argue with that. This game will be something to really wait for. The more I play the demo the better it gets. And its been a long time since something like that has happened. Even the beta demo made a lasting impression. Cant wait to see the full product. ------------------ Janne Nordström [This message has been edited by Perkl (edited 03-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The more I play the demo the better it gets. And its been a long time since something like that has happened. Even the beta demo made a lasting impression. Cant wait to see the full product.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> HeHe... Welcome to the brotherhood of CM junkies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Perkl: Had some problems with the German halftracks in the Last Defence-scenario. They tended to drive in each others way and when this happened, there would be much confusion about the direction where each vehicle should continue. One of them would do a 360 degree spin and end up at the final location almost a minute later. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Check out my post titled "Bumper tanks". It describes the same thing. It is a bug in the Beta that has been fixed. IMO the worst feature of the game is that there are only 3 scenarios, but thats all about to change in a BIG way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Perkl: Downloaded the demo, tried it. Loved it. Now I am seriously considering about buying the game when it comes out. First, though, I'd like to ask from people that have tried the demo a lot more than I have: what were the worst problems that you encountered during the game? My worst problems were not quite being able to discern how fast casualties were accumulating in a unit. Especially with enemy units this was a problem. I would have liked a small graphic representation of casualty occurring during playback, or left to ground. Maybe this could be optional? The unit pathfinding was a bit erratic at times. It would be a lot easier to find out how many men were left in a squad if the amount of men was correct. This could be optional, as computers become steadily more powerful and this game has the potential to be in my hard drive for years to come. Is there a "next"-button to start from A0 and go in order through the units? Probably is, just did not find it with my fast test. These are just minor things. The game has awful lot of potential, it has a sound basic system of play and loads of possibilities for customization and creation of additional scenarios. It has the potential to become a true classic into which future wargames are compared. Alone the turn system of 60 seconds is something long awaited. I'd like to hear from you what were the worst things in the demo. I could only find these very minor points. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Must....refrain....from.....flaming.... Well Perkl, this was a BETA DEMO that came out almost 6 Months ago. The ENTIRE game has changed since then. For one, graphically showing the "squads" with full strength, would be very taxing on the CPU. If you look closely at your squads, they will "flinch" when hit. The unit pathfinding, is only as smart as *you* make it. That's what "waypoints" are for. It's called micro-management. Granted, the halftracks do get erratic at times, but I assure you this has been fixed. The fact is that you can give a single unit many different orders per turn. That's the beauty of turn-based/simultaneous execution. For one this game has THREE levels of AI, you think that the Demo's AI is good, wait for the Gold version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hunt52 Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 Actually, to further the discussion of the 1 to 1 representation of squads: If you show every guy in the squad people will want to control every guy in the squad. This is below the scale CM simulates, so it won't be done (afaik). Imagine plotting waypoints for 300 men! - Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stone Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 Hey Perkl, The pathfinding issue can also be taken care of through the "Group Move" feature, which was added after the Beta Demo (we're playing now). Now, I know "Group Move" applies to infantry-- so I assume it can apply to vehicles too. Later Stoner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 Group Move really doesn't address the pathfinding issue. If an AFV "bumps" a wooded area in the beta demo, it is not uncommon to find a series of AI-created movement orders after the game turn, i.e. reverse-move-reverse-move-move-reverse etc. It is (was) as though the AI couldn't see the woods, and was "feeling" its way around it. The best thing to do is Backspace to remove them all and plot a new course from scratch (usually starting with Rotate, to get around the obstacle). This is said to be much improved in the release version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 > It is (was) as though the AI couldn't > see the woods, and was "feeling" its > way around it. Hmmmmm...I always looked at this like the tank commander ATTEMPTING to follow orders to drive through the 'woods' (hey maybe the Col. knows something I don't...) and then failing the ability to do this, then doing his best to second-guess the INTENTION of the orders (always a tough job). Frankly, I have no problem with the current (ie Beta Demo) level of path-finding. ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 There was a discussion of this here: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001369.html <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You can not expect the vehicle to know what your intentions are. Computers can not read minds If it drives along the route that you plotted for it, bumps into impassible terrain, it *must* take evasive action. There is *no* other option for it. A blocked path is a blocked path. So the best advice is to plot further away or use more wayponts to make sure you aren't cutting the corner of a woods tile.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>-BTS followed by: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It would be nice if we could give you some warning that your path is cutting through some impassible terrain, but it is not that easy for us to code such a thing AND have it not affect the UI responsiveness on mid to lower end systems. This is definately something we can address with the next version.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>-BTS So we do have a problem explaining our intentions to Mr. Computer. The cause is quite understandable. However, it would be difficult to picture a human TC ordering the driver to continue bumping into trees, buildings, or other vehicles until a path around them was found. It may just be asking too much of the CPU to figure "well, he wants me to end up there, but I can't drive through this impassable stuff, so I'll find a way around it". But there is a noticeable difference between the way the computer elects to solve it and the way a human would, i.e., eyeball the terrain and drive around the woods. -answers by Searchotron [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 03-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 Pathfinding has been tremendously improved since the beta, though. Now the TacAI is able to determine much earlier if there are obstacles in the way and will plot way less waypoints to move around them. Looks better and causes less problems. Moving in column is still not a no-brainer: you do help the AI when you issue pause orders to trailing vehicles to avoid any pile ups from time to time. But it's much less of a problem than it used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted March 31, 2000 Share Posted March 31, 2000 > Moving in column is still not a > no-brainer: you do help the AI > when you issue pause orders to > trailing vehicles to avoid any > pile ups from time to time. Pehaps a "FOLLOW" order in CM2? ------------------ The Grumbling Grognard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiwiJoe Posted April 1, 2000 Share Posted April 1, 2000 I would REALLY luv to see each of the 12 men in a squad. It should be an option for those of us with fast computers. Just like u can thin-out/increase the trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted April 1, 2000 Share Posted April 1, 2000 Kiwi, that has been discussed exhaustively. With the size of the maps in CM, BTS has stated that its just too many polygons. Besides, the 3 man represenation is adequate for gameplay, seeing that the lowest level of orders are issued to squads, not individuals.... ( ok except for sharpshooters, and FO's) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted April 1, 2000 Share Posted April 1, 2000 From the "why only three men per squad?" section of the FAQ. http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000044.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000034.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000223.html http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/000324.html These are some REALLY old discussions. The oldest is over a year old. Some basic reasons: Not enough CPU power (not for most people, anyway) The soldier's individual locations aren't currently tracked. If all men were represented, individual soldier location/behavior would need to be tracked (like CC). Coding nightmare! Massive LOS calculations! If all soldiers were represented it would be massive screen clutter. As Steve has said, "UI nightmare" Jason - If only I could get a paying job hunting down links... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted April 2, 2000 Share Posted April 2, 2000 I guess there is really only one feature of the game I don't care for too much, and that's the blood and carnage. I don't want to sound sadistic, but that was a reality of WWII. We don't need to see PVT snuffy's head blowing off, but it would not be offensive to see some blood and a few dead bodies here and there. Yes, I know it's been discussed before! guachi, please....for the love of god...no links. ------------------ Better to make the wrong decision than be the sorry son of a bitch to scared to make one at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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