Germans, Nazis and SS -- oh, my!

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BasilD:

So I'll throw in my opinions.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well thought out and said. I wish I could hear them over a beer at a pub or such. A lot of depth and insight. Cheers! (I'm not being sarcastic)

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[This message has been edited by Dr. Brian (edited 08-25-2000).]

[DrD]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hakko Ichiu:

Thank you, but I've lived long enough not to be lectured on civility. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but all opinions are not equally valid. Some opinions deserve to have scorn heaped upon them. "The Germans were the best ever" is one of those.

Your point is perfectly correct: we can't compare armies across time in any meaningful way; hence, the statement that "The Germans were the best ever" is meaningless, and your point complements mine exactly. Therefore, I respect it. Even if I did not agree with it (or it with me), I would respect it because it is based on logic and evidence, unlike "the Germans were the best ever".

As to my final jibe, as I said elsewhere, it was just a jibe. I don't know the Commissar, and wouldn't presume to guess at his motivations.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All interesting points. I was not aware that Sajer's book was fictionalized.

My main point which I apologize for not being clearer on was that since we can't really say with any degree of certainty whether the Germans had the best army ever we should welcome and discuss all opinions on the matter, including those who say "the Germans were the best ever etc." I guess I was a bit taken aback by your certainty that this was not the case.

My own opinion is that the German armed forces as a whole were the finest (defined as doing the job they were supposed to do) of the Second World War. I concede that using the above definition the Allied forces of Desert Storm would perhaps be the finest of the 20th century.

As far as the Romans, I believe the durability of their empire had to do more with their civil administration and technology than their military prowess. Where the Germans destroyed and killed, the Romans built and improved. Not to take away from the fact that they were the finest soldiers of their time.

Finally, I agree with what seems to be the majority of the posters that while the Nazi regime and let's not kid ourselves alot of the Army were simply evil, I don't think that prohibts us from admiring and respecting their prowess as fighting men. If this were not so I'd wager WW2 games and history in general wouldn't be as popular as they are.

I actually thinks it's a great mix. In CM I'll happily play all armies: The Germans because they're so damn good, the Amis because I am one, the French because my dad's one, the Brits because they are IMHO also one of the best military powers of the last few centuries (go Aubrey! go Wellington!) with the added bonus that they're moral and not at all evil, the Canadians because they're kind of a cross between the Amis and the Brits, and the Poles because they were (are) brave as hell. Of course these are all generalizations and are only my opinions.

Finally, I apologize for seeming to lecture but I still believe that we should all be as civil as possible. It's actually quite fun!

On that note; Thank everyone for reading this and the next sip of my G+T is to your health and confusion to our enemies! i.e. .. (edited for politeness.)

[Dr. Brian]

Whew! Okay, I hope i didn't p/o anyone this time. They are what I have learned and researched and listened too, etc.

Later!

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[Major Tom]

Every year each nation gets a new levy of troops when the young come of age. Not every German unit was made up of children and old men in 1944.

Yes, there were some poor divisions in 1944, but, there still were many great units left. How else could they have defended France for 6 months in 1944 when they took it in 6 weeks in 1940! They reached Moscow in 6 months, and it took the Russians 2 years to reach Berlin!

Once the Normandy stalemate was broken it was relatively quick movement to the German border. However, breaking out of Normandy was a tough and bloody affair for both sides and, fighting across the Rhine still took a very long time and effort. Was Omaha a cakewalk? Operation Goodwood? What about Market Garden? The Bulge?

[Fred]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

It's a known fact, albeit some refuse to accept it, that the Germans by 1944 had depleted their best soldiers, and the US, who did not deplete their talent pool, were just better. That's why they got ashore, pushed them back, ran across France, and crossed the Rhine. Thoughts?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mr. Brian,

please do at least SOME historical research, before posting such nonsense on a credited board like this.

It was not the "talent pool" that failed but it was, once again, the former private named Hitler and the OKW.

Do you know about operation "Fortitude"?

Do you know about a Montgomery look-alike named Lt. C.James?

Ever heard about the FUSAG?

I doubt it.

These generalized statements of you don't even show me that you have done any research on the topics you are talking about.

Fred

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"I got signals, I got readings, in front and behind of us!" - PFC Hudson on LV-426 mission

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elijah Meeks:

I assume, Kitty, that you posted this without refreshing and therefor missed the post it was in response to.

In case this is not true, for further explanation, my point was that you cannot pretend like political parties in totalitarian states are a matter of personal choice or that the armed forces were not an extension of them, as that is what a totalitarian state is all about. This is in direct contrast with a republic or democracy.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No I saw the preceeding post but didn't know what point you were trying to make. I do now, thanks. I have to disagree somewhat though. Obviously, a democratic system involves far more of a choice for it's people than does a totalitarian one but even a democracy's party is the choice of the majority, but not everyone. For instance, I didn't vote for Clinton. As for the second remark, one of the most oft-quoted statements I've ever heard is something like, "War is just an extension of politics by other means." To say that the US Army was/is not an extension of it's politics is wrong. =/

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

Sure do Kitty, one of my unlces was butchered by soldiers under Peiper's direct command in 1944, but I guess, I never got to know him.

My other uncles, who did survive the war, told me all the time how ineffective the Germans were, and how bad @ss they (my uncles) were. (2 in the US Army, 2 in the USN, 1 in the USAAF, both thearters of operation).

But, that's the quality of German soldiers and leadership in 1944. Was it different earlier? Maybe yes, maybe no. So, the units they were facing across the race in France and Italy, were sub-par.

It's a known fact, albeit some refuse to accept it, that the Germans by 1944 had depleted their best soldiers, and the US, who did not deplete their talent pool, were just better. That's why they got ashore, pushed them back, ran across France, and crossed the Rhine. Thoughts?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's always hard, if not impossible, to try to respond to someone when their post includes members of their family. I have something I'd like to say but will refrain from doing so because I wouldn't want you to misinterpret my response as a personal attack or anything so I'll stay away from that one. I don't want to get anyone mad at me and think i'm a bitch. =(

So I'll just paraphrase this as far as I can recall, don't have the book in front of me right now, from Bill Maudlin's "Up Front."

"You may hear a GI call a German "A lousy son of a bitch but you'll never hear him say he's no good."

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DrD:

All interesting points. I was not aware that Sajer's book was fictionalized.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's kind of a hotly debated point. I tend to believe that it was fiction, myself.

[Guest machineman]

I know my first reaction, when I didn't know anything about the war, was "We kicked Nazi ass!" I think it's a natural mix of national pride and wartime Allied propaganda. Movies, comic books, the germans are always evil and worse, next to useless compared to the brave and noble GI. Anyone ever read Sgt Rock as a kid?

The more I read about the war, however, the more I realized how tough the war was and how tough the Germans were, how much better their fighting skills were than their opponents (not always, but most often), and how much the German army of 1939-45 influenced armies of today (including ironically, the Israeli army).

No offense, but I think the more you know about the war (and the more you can let go of your nationalism and politics) the more you admire the Germans military prowess and the hell they went through in a misgotten cause.

[Splinty]

It's my belief that the German's were better at the squad,platoon and company level than their Allied counterparts,all of the nations involved had good,bad and downright terrible units at the larger level.

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Nicht Schiessen!!

[WineCape]

Originally posted by MadDog0606:

Don't sweat it. I'm not hurt. But then again I'm only half Italian. But you do have to watch out for the Portuguese side of me. That's where my anger comes from.

I am married to a Portuguese lady (nee Jardim) from Madeira!!

Best wishes MadDog - I know the 2 minute blow-ups followed by sheer calmness! A trait I envy. Over and done with. No sulking.

Now wish I could do that after I lost another battle in CM!!

WineCape

Stellenbosch, South Africa

[Juju]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I just want to point out that this sort of reaction is not completely irrational. By voluntarily choosing to associate yourself (however remotely) with a name, idea or concept, you (IMO) have to accept the baggage that comes along with that association.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excerpt from "Johnny and the Bomb" by Terry Pratchett

---------------------------------------------

The scene: WWII, British police office. Police are interrogating Bigmac, a 14 year old 'skinhead,' who has been transported along with his friends to his hometown in 1941. Bigmac has been arrested for joyriding. Captain Harris is just examining Bigmac's jacket...:

(...) Then the Captain picked up Bigmac's jacket.

'what's this made of?' he said.

'I dunno, some kind of plastic,' said Bigmac (...)

The Captain pulled it this way and that.

'How's it made?'

'Ah, I know that,' said Bigmac. 'I read about it. You mix some chemicals together, and you get plastic. Easy.'

In camouflage colors,' said the Captain.

Bigmac licked his lips. He was sure he was in deep trouble, so there was no sense in pretending.

'That's just to make you look hard,' he said.

'Hard. I see,' said the Captain, and his eyes didn't really give away whether he really saw or not. He held up the jacket and pointed to two words done rather badly in biro.

'What exactly are BLACKBURY SKINS?' he said.

'Er. That's me and Bazza and Skazz. Er. Skinheads. A kind of gang...'

'Gang,' said the Captain.

'Er. Yes.'

'Skinheads?'

'Er... The haircut,' said Bigmac.

Looks like an ordinary military haircut to me,' said the sergeant.

'And these,' said the Captain, pointing to the swastikas on either side of the name. 'Gang badges, are they? Also to make you look hard?'

'Er... it's just... you know... Adolf hitler and that,' said Bigmac.

All the men were staring at him.

'It's just decoration,' said Bigmac.

The Captain put the coat down very slowly.

It's nothing to get excited about,' said Bigmac.

'Where I come from, you can by badges and things down the market, you can get Gestapo knives-'

'That's enough!' said the Captain. (...) I want your name, the names of your contacts... everything.' A unit is coming from HQ and they aren't as patient as I am, do you understand?'(...)

'Are you one of them Hitler's Youths?' said the sergeant conversationally.

---------------------------------------------

Juju

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I am not a racialist, but, und this is a big but, we in the National Bocialist Party believe das überleben muss gestammen sein mit der schneaky Armstrong-Jones. (Mr. Hilter)

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Interesting piece, Ive seen other films similar. The problem with this is it isnt 1941, the war IS over, and has been for a long time. This is a game forum we are playing a WW2 GAME. Contrasting people that play as germs or having a germ sounding name to this is comparing apples and oranges. There wasnt even computers back then so this anaolgy makes NO sense.

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Lindan]

Dr. Brian, I apologize!!

Please excuse my ungermanlike behaviour today.

I totally failed in my holy and

germanogenetically duties to

<ul>

<LI>be a totally incompetent soldier

<LI>greet passing people by shouting "Sieg Heil" and/or "Heil Hitler"

<LI>invade Poland (I wanted to, REALLY, but I missed the bus.)

<LI>dress up with nothing but black leather and a Luger stuck in my a**.

<LI>kill my grandfathers because they didn't fight to the death in WWII

<LI>torture one of my grandpa's before killing him, because he wasn't even a self-respecting nazi in the war (shocking!)

I have to admit that I conducted myself well today and even *shudder* put a small tip I got into the "S.O.S Kinderdorf" (a welfare organization) box. Worst of all, I won a PBEM. (so I'm a liar too, oh my!)

Failing all the a.m. duties I apologize again, this time for not committing suicide because I'm German. (AND not to forget, failed to do everything you expected from me!)

Worst of all, I'm now here, writing this nonsense, just because someone like you makes my stomach turn so hard that I could throw up.

Why don't you take your germanophobe(sp?) bullsh*t and your half-informed conclusions and stick them where I keep my Luger (see above) most of the time, it will feel cool, believe me!.

[edited and removed some harsh language, a hamster wearing a Stahlhelm and a Sturmspüle]

[This message has been edited by Lindan (edited 08-26-2000).]

[MadDog0606]

Come on people. If we can keep this thread going long enough we may pull ahead of that Hamster thread!!!!

If we can keep up the message rate it will only take us 10 days!!!!

Dr. Brian match this silly post, I dare you. You can do it. Just start typing some of that anti-german stuff your real good at.

[Lindan]

...and I didn't even torture ONE hamster!

Damn!

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fred:

Mr. Brian,

please do at least SOME historical research, before posting such nonsense on a credited board like this.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why don't you do some real historical research. You're a dweeb for even using that as a basis to discredit my statement.

All you others, you've done a good job alienating someone that doesn't fall in line.

It's sad many of you are so ignorant.

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[Lindan]

And you have done a good job alienating me just for the reason that I'm German.

Well done!

The only thing you did better is making a fool of yourself. (And a great endurance you had in this. You COULD be German after all, hehe...)

[Guest Mirage2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Brian:

It's sad many of you are so ignorant.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look, nobody here has said that the Nazi party is the best thing to happen to the world. We all understand what they did. But we also understand that it was over fifty years ago, and your average person in Germany right now isn't a Hitler-loving fanatic out to conquer the world.

We can also understand that sometimes its fun to play as the "bad guys" in a computer game. Because it's just that—a computer game, and no one gets hurt. It's the same reason why some people like to play as the Confederacy in American Civil War wargames, or the Soviets in a WWII or WWIII wargame. And you have to remember that not everyone here is American, or British, or French. I can imagine that some Germans feel more connected to the WWII German army than the WWII Allied army. That doesn't make them Nazis.

Why is this view ignorant?

-Andrew

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Throw me a frickin' smiley, people!

Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it!

[MadDog0606]

Doc, your a funny guy, I like you! I really really do!! Your like comedy relief. Whenever I get bored I read the threads that you participate in. I guess I'm a weed (or is that a roach?). You make me laugh. To think that there is a person that exists that has your personality. My mind just fills with wonder and awe at your comedic timing. Whenever a thread is about to cool down you jump right in there and fan the flames to keep the show going. BRAVO BRAVO (standing applause).

I, for one, hope you never leave this forum. Tell you the truth, it was getting kind of stuffy in here with all that talk about armor penetrations; MG42's; rosters; newbies; turrent rotation rates; texture mods; when CM2 is coming out; Do a search threads; Hacking; and, lets not forget, HAMSTERS.

I told you that you could match my silly post and you did. Doc, you ... I'm at a loss for words.

I have a hard time believing that you truly exist. I think your just some oldtimer of the forum having a little fun.

[This message has been edited by MadDog0606 (edited 08-26-2000).]

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mirage2k:

Why is this view ignorant?

-Andrew

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Andrew, I do not think that the view you detailed is ignorant, if that helps any.

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MadDog0606:

To think that there is a person that exists that has your personality. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maddog, I'm glad you find some enjoyment, but I'm going to scare you now...

There are millions of people outside "our" little war gaming world that think this way. Blame the liberal media if you want.

Please refer to "One More Time" Thread. You may (or may not) find it funny.

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[Guest Mirage2k]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Andrew, I do not think that the view you detailed is ignorant, if that helps any.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No insult intended, but I think that view was what everyone else was trying to say this entire time.

-Andrew

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Throw me a frickin' smiley, people!

Your one-stop-shop for gaming news is www.SiegersPost.com ! Hit it!

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mirage2k:

No insult intended, but I think that view was what everyone else was trying to say this entire time.

-Andrew

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you're the only sane person here, I guess. You got it across.

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[howardb]

It would be a bit unfair if people started to call me a rapist, marauding Viking only for being Norwegian.

Good point Andrew