Fionn? Russian 1941 AT rifles - could these kill Panzer III?

[crossfire]

Russian 1941 AT rifles - could these kill Panzer III?

I am playing CC3 and 40 ATR shots at Panzer III from a distance of 10 meters just killed 2 crew members. It just does not feel right.

I read somewhere ATRs were affective to 500 meters. But they seem to be useless at 10 meters.

Can someone please tell me just how effective ATRs were?

[This message has been edited by crossfire (edited 04-27-2000).]

[killmore]

I heard that Polish AT rifle could kill any German tank in 1939.

But these rifles were so secret that no one knew how to use them when the war started...

[Bakker@home]

The russian 14.5 mm anti-tank rifle could penetrate 30mm of armour at 500m which was the armor thickness of the front of the turret, turret sides and hull sides of the pzkw III in 1941.

But remember it was only a bullet so don't expect immidiate brew-ups unless you're lucky and hit ammo or a fuel tank.

Grtz S Bakker.

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Visit my CM site!

The bunker: http://bunker.panzershark.com

Another proud member of the Panzershark webring.

[This message has been edited by Bakker@home (edited 04-27-2000).]

[Mattias]

Gander & Chamberlain puts it at 30mm@100m and 25mm@500 when firing at a vertical plate.

Since you will almost never find these conditions on the battlefield I would say its pretty safe to assume that the front of even the older (E/F) Pz III´s were safe from 14.5 mm fire. The same would go for the sides and rear beginning with, at least, the "H" model that was produced 40/41.

However, it was hard to detect, mobile, easy to handle and, abov all, very common. The AT-rifle survived a long time in Russian service, if nothing else for lack of options.

This is not to say that the AT-rifle wasn’t a problem. It was a constant nuisance as it seemed to dig into every little opening or weak spot, the commanders cuppola being a common target for example.

A "tribute" to it’s effectiveness was the mounting of Schürzen on the German tanks which were intended to deflect, disturb or detonate incoming rounds, the 14.5mm AT-rifle being the main cause for this design solution.

M.

[PanzerLeader]

The Soviet early war AT rifles seem completely useless in Eastern Front 2, against any type of german armour stronger than the PzKpfwII.

They do kill the occasional PzIII or IV, but it remains very rare.

[Gen. Sosaboski]

Poles could and did kill German panzers-although they lost in 1939. Later, they got more than their fill in Italy and France, though...

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Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn.

Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member!

[Fionn]

Actually what you have asked is a very interesting and somewhat complicated question.

Here is the low-down ( i've had to research this exact question myself when AT rifles were being added into Panzer Commander and I was giving SSI the info regarding effectiveness so I am pretty familiar with the topic).

1. An AT rifle COULD penetrate an early Pz III frontal armour at any point where that armour was vertical under IDEAL CONDITIONS and at ranges of no more than 100 metres.

2. Beyond 100 metres only lucky shots, shots through the driver's scope and the effect of repeated hits in the same spot ( causing material stress) caused penetrations.

3. An AT rifle round carried NO explosive charge and its kinetic energy after penetration was negligible so that even a roun which penetrated the 30mm of armour usually had VERY little energy left after penetration.

Most AT rifle rounds which penetrated did no more than kill a crewman or break a radio or something similar. Under VERY exceptional circumstances an AT rifle round might break a hydraulics line (resulting in fire) or touch of MG ammo but basically an AT round which penetrated would usually only kill or ijure the crew.

On the other hand they DID play havoc with suspension systems, cupolas, driver's vision slits etc and could definitely degrade a tank's ability to fight and manoeuvre and IMO this was their main utility.

All German tank chassis up to the Panther chassis were acutely vulnerable to suspension damage from AT rifle rounds. The Panther and Tiger were relatively invulnerable to AT rounds everywhere.

So, AT rifles really didn't kill many tanks. They degraded performance and sometimes even immovbilised them or killed their crew but it would be VERY VERY rare to see a brewed up Pz III as a result of an AT rifle round.

[Bamse]

A real topic !

Give me more....Don't stop now !

Björn Elfström

Ps. What was the accuracy of those rifles ?

In CC3 I couldn't hit a barn from 20m Ds.

[This message has been edited by Bamse (edited 04-27-2000).]

[Username]

In street fighting these weapons could be easily moved up staircases and fire down onto armor. They would then be a real nuisance to engine compartments, hatches even turret roof armor. They probably were kept around for so long because they could still deal with SPW and armored cars and such in addition to being a nuisance.

I believe the soviet 14.5mm machine gun fired this round also. Making it a full auto antitank rifle?

Lewis

[crossfire]

Fionns response seems to mean to me that at the distance of 10 meters every ATR round should have penetrated the Panzer III.

In that case I think 10 shots should have easily kill all of the crew members. (There were 4 of them)

I guess I need to learn how to modify RealRed CC3 files.

[Fionn]

Well even the most braindead AI should reverse the tank away from the AT rifle after the first shot hits it. Really the destruction of the tank is unrealistic.

What SHOULD happen is that after the first one or two rounds penetrate the armour the tank commander would order the driver to take them into some cover and let his infantry support take out the AT rifle.

of course this isn't really possible in CC3 and so I think they simulate the lack of effectiveness of the AT rifle by making it woefully inaccurate and so try to approximate its lack of effectiveness.

I gave up on CC3 after doing a review and pointing out its flaws led Keith Z to become rabid in attacking me for my review ( he tried every trick in the book to have the site pull my review). I wouldn't think that CC3 is worth working on really.

I'd just wait for CM2 which will be far, far, far superior ( the old beta demo is REALLY tame compared to the current builds we have ).

[crossfire]

I am also waiting for CM2. East front will be my favorite!

I love playing russians. I managed to stop human opponent just one map before Moscow and slaughtered him too.

It is fun to play CC3 against another human. By the way german tank was probably immobilized and therefore not able to escape.

See - if I play against human - the human tell tank to escape and use infantry instead.

[Guest GriffinCheng]

Off-topic :

I went to Nellis AFB Air Show in 1997 and there, a captured Iraqi Shika mobile AAA was exhibited. I noticed there is a round hole near the turret ring with no larger than 1-inch in diameter. Is it caused by some AT rounds similar to those of AT-rifles?

Griffin @ work

[Mark IV]

Panzerbuchse 41 was an air-cooled 20mm semi-auto, weighing 97 lbs. It penetrated 30mm armor at 250 yards, and was the furthest the Germans tried to pursue the infantry AT rifle. They ended up giving many to the Italians. The design was such that US Army test firers said it had about the same felt recoil as the Springfield .30-06.

One interesting thing about its predecessor, the Pzb 38 (and 39): the ammunition was a 13mm Mauser cartridge necked down to a 7.92mm bullet. The bullet itself was tungsten-cored, and between the bullet and the tracer element was an aspirin-sized tear-gas pellet! These bullets did penetrate some Polish armored vehicles (though the tear gas had no recorded effect, and was discovered by accident in captured ammunition).

[Username]

LOL Griffin

Yes the US secret weapon of the gulf war.. the antitank rifle. More than likely it was hit by a sabot round. Probably went all the way through too.

LEWIS

[Guest srare]

Sabot?

[Guest JonS]

For a bit about Sabot, go here:

http://192.41.43.237/man/dod-101/sys/land/m829a1.htm

1 inch ~ 25mm which is about the calibre of the chain gun on the Bradley, the Harrier, F/A-18, Apache, and A-10. Based on the information provided, my guess would be a round from one of those.

Regards

Jon

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Ubique

[Rommel]

Jeez all of you talking about "I'm waiting for CM2, its gonna be great", well I've got news for you guys, I'M STILL WAITING ON CM1!!

[Guest GriffinCheng]

Humm, I am not sure if PanzerTruppen 1 has a photo of a Pazner III / IV turned honeycomb showing the effects of anti-tank rifle.

Griffin @ lunch

[Fenris]

The idea of AT rifles is still around, although they're called "anti material" rifles now. IIRC Steyr (sp?) have a 15mm rifle. It's primary purpose as the name suggests is to blow holes in engines and stuff like that.

I don't know of any country who's armed forces have taken them up as standard equipment tho.

Reg's

Fen

[Gen. Sosaboski]

Close JonS, the A-10 uses the GAU-8A cannon nicknamed the "Avenger" (30mm, depleted uranium shells).

Sorry about that, but couldn't resist. The A-10 is my favorite plane out there today, and I'm going to fly it someday...

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Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn.

Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member!

[Guest JonS]

Sos,

Thanks, but I'm well aware of the calibre of the GAU . On the platforms I named there are 3 calibres represented - 20mm, 25mm, and 30mm. I picked those as being around the one-inch mark that Griffen mwntioned, and possibly have been in a position to take out the Shika.

Regards

Jon

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Ubique

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonS:

For a bit about Sabot..1 inch ~ 25mm which is about the calibre of the chain gun on the Bradley, the Harrier, F/A-18, Apache, and A-10. Based on the information provided, my guess would be a round from one of those.

Regards

Jon

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Jon

If its an inch hole and you think a sabot from a bushmaster did it..isnt your logic got like a hole in it?

A Sabot round is subcaliber. Meaning that it would be less than 25mm?

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/8013/m242.html

I am really surprised that i am the only one catching these JonS mistakes..

Lewis

[Guest JonS]

Lewis,

I never said it was a Sabot round that penetrated the Shika... Srare didn't know what Sabot was, so I posted a link that might help him out.

As to the specific point raised in your last post, well the PGU-14/B API Armor Piercing Incendiary [DU] 30mm Ammunition has a sub calibre DU penetrator that is sub calibre by only 1.6mm. By my reckoning that still leaves a hole about 28mm in diameter - fairly close to about 1 inch. The PGU-20/U API 25mm cartridge would leave a hole about 23mm in diameter - give or take a few mm - again, fairly close to one inch.

Since neither of us has seen this hole, it behooves neither of us to quibble over reasonable suggestions as to what caused it. Especially without researching whether that solution is feasible or not.

Oh, BTW, Griffen never said that AT Rifles were used in the Gulf ... he merely asked if the hole could have been caused by "AT rounds similar to those of AT-rifles", so mocking him for his question was, IMHO, uncharitable to say the least.

Regards

Jon

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Ubique

[This message has been edited by JonS (edited 04-30-2000).]