Horse transport

[coe]

Any thoughts of possible modelling horse

transport...I mean I don't think the

germans were as motorized as the Americans

or British in 1944. Imagine instead of

coming up upon a column of halftracks, you

run into horse drawn artillery/antitank

guns, etc.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by coe:

Any thoughts of possible modelling horse

transport...I mean I don't think the

germans were as motorized as the Americans

or British in 1944. Imagine instead of

coming up upon a column of halftracks, you

run into horse drawn artillery/antitank

guns, etc.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay I do - now what would be the difference except for having dead horses instead of dead trucks after one minute? Should they be accompanied by bicycle-mounted infantry? And Gulaschkanonen (very important to the war effort, should really be modeled).

Unfortunately all three of these are irrelevant at CM's scale.

You can also do a search which will reveal exactly that, from the horse's mouth (bad bad pun, go lie in a corner)

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

Germans - they come here, they shag our anteaters. (Angus Deaton)

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-20-2000).]

[coe]

hmmm, but lets say, Horses don't have

breakdowns like vehicles or might they

go crazy under fire (much like your men not

obeying orders and rushing off somewhere)

of course they are very softskinned

bicycles movement would be rather quick

of course you can pick them off easily....

[Phoenix]

Do a search with the key word "horses". This thread has been beaten to death and BTS (and others) have explained why they are not modeled as many other things are not modeled.

Horses don't have breakdowns like vehicles or might they go crazy under fire

Horses don't break down? So they don't get sick, break legs, fall? As to horses going

"crazy", what do you want? Them breaking free of their reigns and running away? What's the point?

[Bruno Weiss]

Ah, but horsees can pull guns through the woods and vehicles can't. Gimme some horsees and I can start buying more AT guns instead of tracked AT's, cause them horsees can get them into nice hidden woods positions faster, and with the ability to withdraw them deeper into the woods where tracks and vehicles can't go. And horsees don't bogg, they would be cheaper than vehicles to buy, and and AAAANNNNNDDDDD, once BTS went ahead and took the big plunge, modeled the nasty smelling critters, then they'd be in a position to produce this game engine in any combat scenario spanning hundreds or thousands of years. HISTORY VILL BE OURS!!!

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[Splinty]

I read somewhere that the German supply trains were 60% horsedrawn.

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Nicht Schiessen!!

[Chupacabra]

When BTS starts coding Logistics Mission, I'll be the first to lobby for horse transport. Until then, let's leave the animals to Deer Hunter.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Guest Pillar]

Want to know what I think of the extra time it would require to program horses on the battlefield?

NAY.

(Although, runaways might be interesting. Look! Fangorns 150mm is getting carried off the map by his mad horses! YES!!!!)

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Splinty:

I read somewhere that the German supply trains were 60% horsedrawn.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably more. On my website is a picture from Lake Peipus, showing a pier for fodder full of hay. Anyway, as Chubbachops rightly points out, at the level of CM, it does not matter at all whether they were rocket-drawn or dependant on jet backpacks.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

Germans - they come here, they shag our anteaters. (Angus Deaton)

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-20-2000).]

[patboivin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Probably more. On my website is a picture from Lake Peipus, showing a pier for fodder full of hay. Anyway, as Chubbachops rightly points out, at the level of CM, it does not matter at all whether they were rocket-drawn or dependant on jet backpacks.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

... unless you are looking for historical realism in a game...

I am amazed at the vitriolic response, horses WERE there during WWII, possibly in greater numbers than trucks for some forces. My guess is that they are really difficult to model, hence they are not in the game. If they were boxy like Volvo's they would probably be in the game.

[Guest Napoleon1944]

I put a cow into the game. Let's get the horses in too. They were a vital part of the German transport. People want want to get as close as they can to realism. I admire that.

[The Commissar]

I dont care much about the transport, but

The COSSACKS, wont's SOMEBODY PLEASE think about the Cossacks?!?

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Snake Eyes]

Did someone mention Cossacks? What's a Cossack without his horse? Just another grunt?

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It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop

[Chupacabra]

Horses were certainly not used in combat except, IIRC, by the Poles in '39 and by anti-partisan units on the Eastern Front. Hell, at CM's level, I'm not so sure that prime movers should be included at all, let alone horses. CM models the front, not the logistics train. IMO it would not add a single whit of realism to the game to model Trigger.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[Olle Petersson]

And I thought the thread title pointed at the trucks used to transport horses for the US cavalry...

Cheers

Olle

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patboivin:

... unless you are looking for historical realism in a game...

I am amazed at the vitriolic response, horses WERE there during WWII, possibly in greater numbers than trucks for some forces. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And nobody disputes that. Now what I would be interested in is any proof that horses played a significant role at the sharp end, with the exception of Falaise, where their role was to die lots and clog the roads? And that is not something you can simulate in CM, b/c the carnage was mostly due to long-range arty and FB attacks. Do you really want to tell me it is realistic to use horses to move a gun that is under fire from one emplacement to the other?

It is realistic not to have horses at CM's level.

The vitriolic response comes from the fact that:

a) this has been discussed to death

it is sometimes getting a bit tedious to watch people read something somewhere (60% of German transport was horses/lots of German troops used bicycles for transport) and then ask for the inclusion in the game where it has absolutely no place (Cavalry is different, I believe there was one German cavalry division in Army Group North, and there were Cossacks, although whether they fought on horseback or dismounted is a bit unclear to me - probably the latter).

Food for thought: four-engined bombers (Lancasters, B-17s) had a huge impact on frontline fighting through their attacks on German refineries. Somehow I feel there is no need to model them in CM though. Funny that.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-21-2000).]

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

And nobody disputes that. Now what I would be interested in is any proof that horses played a significant role at the sharp end, with the exception of Falaise, where their role was to die lots and clog the roads? And that is not something you can simulate in CM, b/c the carnage was mostly due to long-range arty and FB attacks. Do you really want to tell me it is realistic to use horses to move a gun that is under fire from one emplacement to the other?

It is realistic not to have horses at CM's level.

The vitriolic response comes from the fact that:

a) this has been discussed to death

it is sometimes getting a bit tedious to watch people read something somewhere (60% of German transport was horses/lots of German troops used bicycles for transport) and then ask for the inclusion in the game where it has absolutely no place (Cavalry is different, I believe there was one German cavalry division in Army Group North, and there were Cossacks, although whether they fought on horseback or dismounted is a bit unclear to me - probably the latter).

Food for thought: four-engined bombers (Lancasters, B-17s) had a huge impact on frontline fighting through their attacks on German refineries. Somehow I feel there is no need to model them in CM though. Funny that.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bugger! the German one got to say what I wished to say, and bloody well too.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bastables:

Bugger! the German one got to say what I wished to say, and bloody well too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2fast4U - Grog

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

Germans - they come here, they shag our anteaters. (Angus Deaton)

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-21-2000).]

[ASL Veteran]

The argument about horses not being relevant at CMs 'scale' is ridiculous. When the scale is individual squads, then just about everything that directly effects front line troops is relevant at CM's scale. Horses were the prime movers for German artillery and Infantry Guns. Every German infantry platoon had a few horses and a cart attached. Bicycles too had a role to play at CMs scale. And yes, they could make a difference at CM's 'scale' - assuming you knew how to use them properly of course.

I would hazard a guess that the people who are violently opposed to including horses in CM don't really see the need to include trucks in CM either ... or any prime mover for that matter. Basically, if it doesn't have a gun, then why bother including it at 'this' scale since it would be beyond the scope of the game. Since horses and bicycles don't have guns, obviously they shouldn't be included. I would also hazard a guess that these objections are primarily coming from ex or current CC players since there really isn't anything in CC that doesn't have a gun.

I view that position to be about as simplistic as BTS's argument that the Pacific theater is 'beyond the scope of CM'. They said something about the Pacific theater being nothing but heavy shore bombardments and beach landings more suitable for a battalion level game (paraphrasing from memory). I view ASL as the ultimate test as to whether something is beyond the scope of CM or not. If it is in ASL, then it is not beyond the scope of CM. Both horses and bicycles are in ASL, therefore they can be modelled in CM. Do we want them to be modelled? I wouldn't lose any sleep if they weren't included, but I certainly wouldn't object either.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASL Veteran:

I would hazard a guess that the people who are violently opposed to including horses in CM don't really see the need to include trucks in CM either ... or any prime mover for that matter. Basically, if it doesn't have a gun, then why bother including it at 'this' scale since it would be beyond the scope of the game. Since horses and bicycles don't have guns, obviously they shouldn't be included. I would also hazard a guess that these objections are primarily coming from ex or current CC players since there really isn't anything in CC that doesn't have a gun.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong on both counts. Don't be ridiculous. I ask you to prove that horses were being used at the sharp end to handle guns, in those 30mins that CM simulates. ASL does not count, how about a bit of reality? Saying that 'If ASL simulates it, it can be in CM' is ridiculous.

Using ASL as a yardstick is a bit dangerous, since it is a game. How about this: I asked my grandfather (veteran from the Russian front, arty observation batallion, siege of Leningrad) a few months ago (at a request from Bullethead) about how they handled horse-drawn arty in combat and for removal of guns. He did not know, he had never seen it happen. Five years of marching and fighting through Russia, France and Poland.

My guess would be that at the sharp end guns were handled by manpower, since horses don't like being shot at and have arty go off around them. Unlike humans, it is very difficult to make them think that this is normal, and accept it. This would point towards a somewhat higher intelligence of the poor beasts, BTW.

Ever seen a picture of horses handling guns in a frontline situation? I have not. Ever seen a picture of soldiers handling IGs and Paks under fire? I have.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

Germans - they come here, they shag our anteaters. (Angus Deaton)

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-21-2000).]

[PeterNZer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I view ASL as the ultimate test as to whether something is beyond the scope of CM or not<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure about the rest of us, but some of us view HISTORY as the test.

for goodness sake man, are you telling me soldiers rode around on the battlefield? "come on fritz, get Donner und Blitzen to drag that gun to those trees over there, never mind the yankie tanks". For goodness sake! Do some reading! I am quite frustrated with some people here who think that EVERYTHING smallish and armyish should be included in CM.

Well I'll join in. I think we should have the cookery companies in here too! I want to buy SS cookery companies! I bet they do a much better apfelstrudel than anyone else, they could be CRACK COOKERY COMPANIES! yeah! I mean, I read that Guderian had a commander scrounge up every last man (including cooks) to hold a line. Of course, I want to see them modeled with their white hats.

And cyclists, yeah! I mean, you could 'move fast' and charge down the allies on your bicycles. This happened all the time in ww2!

And horses of course! All the time they had Assault Supply Lines! Elite battalions of wooden carts and horses storming terrified allied lines! I'm sure i read about it in 'Action Man'. They were Sturmpferdewaffe, lethal when given pointy nose guards to spike allied soldiers. And of course, Panzerpferdejager, Horses with big spike mines on their bellies taught to go and hump Shermans.

Really.

People, if you want horses in CM, what are you going to do with them? realistically they'd be sitting about 1km away in a padock with some pimply lad looking after them. You telling me you want to assault them? They DIDN'T wander around battlefields moving guns under fire. Same argument for bicycles, infantry DID NOT storm the enemy picket ridding a bike, they dumped them some way away. Unless you think BTS should take some time out to model a bike rack and bikes in the middle of town.

In CM2 there MAY be some call for cavalry since they were used some, but even then not really.

Everything you ask BTS to do costs them MONEY, there has to be a bloody good reason for it. Please, some people really need to think. I'm an optomist, perhaps beating your heads against the wall will improve things, go try it.

PeterNZ

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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." George W Bush -Saginaw, Mich.,

Sept. 29, 2000

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When the scale is individual squads, then just about everything that directly effects front line troops is relevant at CM's scale.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, he's right. I see no reason why we can't have Battleships and Rail guns modeled in the game.

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Frag Hanoi Jane

[Chupacabra]

Yep, you're absolutely correct, ASLVet. I'm just a failed CC player. I loved all the things that went BOOM and made the pretty 'sploshuns and fire, because I am simple, and quite easy to please, and in addition my medication lowers my attention span to that of a hyperactive ten year-old. I turned to CM because I couldn't make my tanks dance as well as the other boys, and they all laughed at me. And CM was Good, and I was happy.

But still something was missing. I fell to my knees and shook my tiny fists at heaven and screamed "why, Lord, why? Why can't I find a WW2 wargame which models horse transport?"

And Lo! a beam of light shone down, and I head a deep voice say "ASL does, my son, as well as bicycle troops and nationality modifyers and the Italian army's pasta provisions."

My voice quaked as I wept: "Thank you Lord, for this bounty I am about to receive! Thank you Lord, for giving mankind the strength to produce a wargame which models horse transport!"

And He said, "You're welcome, my son. And by the way, your nickname is sweet. Keep up the good work and I'll see what I can do about getting you out of purgatory a few years earlier."

So yes, my friends, ASL is clearly the divine standard to which we all must hold. In horse transport...and in life.

All sarcasm aside. ASLVet, if you're so cocksure about your position, I wonder if you can find a reference to any battles on the Western front where horses played a major role once a battle was joined.

Nutrition affected front line squads as well, should we model that? How about modelling how clean the infantry kept their weapons? Or the quality of their uniforms? Well, if ASL did, I guess CM should hop to it.

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Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh.

[tss]

Germanboy wrote:

Ever seen a picture of horses handling guns in a frontline situation? I have not.

I haven't either, but I have read accounts where horses were, indeed, used in front line to tow guns.

However, as far as I can now remember, in all those accounts those who had horses in combat hadn't planned for it but an enemy attack surprised the artillery or AT gun units.

Few examples:

- During the Finnish counter attack at Kuuterselkä 14 June 1944 Lt. Olli Aulanko's Stug run over (literally) a Soviet 76 mm

battery that was in tow (by horses).

- I have vague recollections that precisely the same thing happened during attact to Karhumäki in November 1941 when the only Finnish T-34 run over a 76 mm battery that was being transported for direct fire to front.

- When Soviets broke through Finnish lines at Valkeasaari 10 June 1944 their tanks drove to a Finnish artillery battery that was just being evacuated. Few guns were already in tow but the drivers cut the horse harnesses and left them behind.

- On the same day on the same front a MG gunner of JR 1 was evacuating his platoon's MGs with a horse-drawn cart when he noticed that the road ahead was blocked by enemy tanks. He jumped out of the cart and let the horse continue alone while he escaped through forest. The tankers didn't shoot at the horse as they saw that there were no-one in the cart. Very surprisingly, the horse and cart got back to their usual quarters intact, with the MGs.

- The next one is pretty unbelievable and actually it doesn't include a combat, but it is pretty interesting and a veteran claimed in an interview that he saw it with his own eyes. During the Finnish retreat from Karelian Isthmus he witnessed that one Finnish horse-drawn cart was advancing next to a KV tank (though the tank was probably a JS-II, tank identification was not an exact science those days). The driver kept his cart so close to the tank that it couldn't shoot its gun. The observer wondered why no tanker inside popped up to shoot the driver. Apparently the tank had got separated from its infantry cover and the crew didn't want to raise their heads. Finally the tank stopped and blocked the route of the cart. At that point the driver cut the horse loose and led it to forest, passing the front of the tank and going under the gun. The observer never found out who that horse driver was and what happened to him afterwards.

In all above cases the horses got to battlefield by accident. Whether that kind of occurences were frequent (and interesting) enough to be warrant inclusion in CM is debatable. However, the same could be said of trucks.

- Tommi

[This message has been edited by tss (edited 11-21-2000).]

[Guest Germanboy]

Gah! Curse of the double-post.

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Andreas

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a >

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 11-21-2000).]