Area Target issues. Your thoughts?????

[TeAcH]

Okay..searched to no avail.

What happens is this. Using my tank (in this case) I target a house that I know contains enemy infantry. I want to destroy the house. I sometimes have to fiddle with the unit's targeting "line" to select the house. Seems like the targeting line breaks right a the end of the house.

There are times when the unit does not seem to want to target the house even though from perspective "1", the house is plainly visible. Does the target "line" search for the extreme bottom edge of the structure and disregard the roof? (Ill have to check)

Solution: I'd like a way to target structures independantly of units.

Issue two: The area fire continues throughout the whole action turn even if the house is destroyed (desired effect) on the first few shots. We have all seen this. The tank just blasts away at a spot in the rubble when the house we wanted destroyed is now gone. The tank continues to blast away at rubble when other targets of opportunity are present, some of which were exposed by the now missing house.

Again. Id like to see a way to target structures making the selection of them easier. Id also like to see my tank crew select a new target when mission is accomplished (house destroyed).

Your thoughts?

Thanks

TeAcH

[KiwiJoe]

Yes treating houses as actually targetable units would be a good idea. Then as soon as the house is destruyed the tank can target something else. Same would go for mortars.

[BFCElvis]

TeAcH, Tageting a building might be a cool idea but I don't know about the retarget thing. Each turn is 60 seconds. If you think of it like "Keep shelled that building there might be some unseen enemy in there". With that in mind there would be no reason to stop shelling it in a 60 second period of time because even if there were confirmed kills there still might be other units in the rubble. That is what area fire is all about....possibly blowing up unseen units.

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"To conquer death you only have to die" JC

[TeAcH]

Yes but wouldnt you want to give the order, "Level that building!"?

So the tank does just that, but say some men then are flushed out of the collapsing building or rubble. Wouldnt you want your tank to then target them? As it stands, your tank will just keep on shelling a spot of the rubble like its AI is disabled for that 60 second phase.

TeAcH

[Herr Jung]

I've been playing the game for a few days now, and I must agree with the original post. I've played the Villers-Bocage scenario over and over last night as Wittman, and I want him to make smart moves during the 60 seconds. The computer AI is very nimble, and does a great job of dodging the 60 ton monster, playing hide-and-seek and making Wittman's Tiger look like a fool during the no-control phase. I want him to level a building with the PIAT team and HQ, and look for other AT threats, but he puts in 5-6 HE shots into the rubble during the full minute. I don't dig control-at-all-times, but this area fire feature might be improved by selecting time or round limit?

Herr Jung

[Mark IV]

DISCLAIMER: This is the greatest war game ever made, and will remain so for some time even if no one "fixes" anything.

If you're lurking here and wondering about ordering it, do so IMMEDIATELY, and there are many here who will take your copy if you don't like it.

That said, I could not agree more about Area Fire- it is an area that could use some attention. I have suggested timed AF, perhaps in quarter-minute increments, as a compromise to more AI-intensive solutions, such as recognizing an inanimate target as no longer worth targeting.

For targeting the building I find the 5 view best- you don't get the snap-to-object effect nearly so much, and can target just a hair into the building (past the front wall). In the "iron man" (1st view only) scenarios this snap-to is a bit of a pain, though I understand that this was not how the game was meant to played.

In fact, I sometimes wish for a "4.5" view- a direct overhead that was even more zoomed in. Handy in forests, too.

It would also be interesting to be able to target a specific story of a building with area fire.

[TeAcH]

Timed area fire might work but the only problem I would see with it is, what if I wanted my fire to continue only until the house is destroyed, then the AI is released to target at will. A timed area fire would not 'fix' the issue, IMO, though it may address and improve upon other ones.

I am specifically talking about the difficulty in targetting a structure and ordering it leveled. Simply making a structure an independant and selectable target type would fix it. Yet we would also need to be able to target units that reside in the structures who present themselves as specific targets.

Im not a programmer. Can this be done? What could fix it?

[BFCElvis]

TeAcH, You are missing the point of what area fire is. By defintion it is fire directed at an area not a unit or structure. The AI does just fine if you are directing fire toward a unit and knock it out. If you were to change it worked it would change the way it works for area fire anywhere (woods, wheatfields, even open ground). I use it not only where I suspected units to be but also where I want to keep units from going to.

The only reason I could see for what you are asking for is to level a building for LOS purposes. Again it is only for 60 seconds. Because we have rewind and pause that 60 seconds can sometimes seem like forever but it only a minute of combat.

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"To conquer death you only have to die" JC

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TeAcH:

Simply making a structure an independant and selectable target type would fix it... Im not a programmer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me either, but I play one at trade shows (laff track- not really). I have learned that "simply" is an unfortunate choice of words when dealing with programmers and more specifically, programs. Unintended consequences, etc....

Your solution is obviously preferred and superior. I only offer the timed deal as a workable compromise, and though there is no guarantee that a building would be leveled in 30 or 45 seconds, it would be mighty inhospitable.

I could see problems with fuzziness, if the building catches fire instead of collapsing-keep shooting, or no? And what happens when you area-fire a patch of woods? Presumably the unit would keep firing til the end of the turn, as it does now, since the forest won't collapse... no help with the ammo-conservation, recon-by-fire role. Then there's area fire by MGs and flamethowers...

Instant totally-consuming catastrophic fires are another issue that has been raised before. Granting that what we see is a representation, and survivors are those who made it out before the fire spread, it still seems that all occupants of a large stone buiding are forced outside within one minute's time (usually, far less) to pirouette crazily amid enemy MGs.

Minor little things in the endless quest for perfection.

[TeAcH]

Good point Elvis. Thanks for keeping me on track. Yes, I want to keep area fire as is with respect to its intended purpose (supression, flushing out units, etc).

In regards to the building targetting, there needs to be some middleground. You said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The only reason I could see for what you are asking for is to level a building for LOS purposes. Again it is only for 60 seconds. Because we have rewind and pause that 60 seconds can sometimes seem like forever but it only a minute of combat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. We agree (not the 60 part though). If the building itself was selectable like a pillbox for example, then we could plan to fire at it until it is flattened (destroyed) and nothing more.

You gotta agree with that. Only 60 seconds or not, if the building went up in the first 5, the remaining 55 seconds could be better utilized by the AI. Agree? Maybe it would go something like this:

The setting

-Enemy infantry runs into building

-Tank targets building (area fire)

-Action round starts

-First 5 seconds, building goes boom

-enemy infantry runs out of building

as it stands now

-tank continues to shoot at same piece of rubble even though the objective was met (destroyed building)

-infantry gets away

as I propose

-tank stops shooting at newly created pile of rubble.

-tank acquires fleeing infantry OR another target of opportunity

Whadya think? Convinced? I know you have been around this game and forum for awhile now Elvis. You certainly have experienced this in a game havent you?

Thanks

TeAcH

[Bertram]

I think the house collapsing at one point is a gross oversimplification of the real thing.

Most houses don't stand unscratched for a couple of shots, and then, with that one shot to many, collapse like a house of cards. In reality the house just would detoriate more and more.

As it is to computer intensive to have multiple images for each house, with more and more damage, this is abstracted.

So there would usually not be a point where the shooter would say: 'Ah, that bullet did it, now I can target something else'.

(see pictures of the time of the french villages, most houses are standing, allthough the interior might be totally destructed).

Bertram

[Andre76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elvis:

TeAcH, You are missing the point of what area fire is. By defintion it is fire directed at an area not a unit or structure. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, that's all very nice, but what shall we do then if we want to JUST level the building? As it stand now there other method for doing this (if you can't target the unit within) I agree with the first poster, it should be an order like "destroy building". Then maybe the flamethrower will last a bit longer also......

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André

[This message has been edited by Andre76 (edited 08-01-2000).]

[TeAcH]

Thanks. If we could just target the building that would address the targeting/LOS issue AND the inability to currently fire on it until it goes boom.

[Sgt.Morgue]

This is a little off subject. But i think there has been some targeting changes with

v1.03. i just had four shermans on a hill area firing houses on the other side of a bridge, during the turn german armor showed up farther away in town , all four shermans quit area fire and engaged the german armor. A nice improvement over the past versions.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

In fact, I sometimes wish for a "4.5" view- a direct overhead that was even more zoomed in. Handy in forests, too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although it's not exactly the same thing, you might try the 3 or 4 view with full camera tilt-down (Shift-Z x 10).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It would also be interesting to be able to target a specific story of a building with area fire.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. And even more, I'd like to be able to reposition units on the top floor without having them go all the way downstairs and back up again. Sometimes time is of the essence.

Michael

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bertram:

I think the house collapsing at one point is a gross oversimplification of the real thing.

Most houses don't stand unscratched for a couple of shots, and then, with that one shot to many, collapse like a house of cards. In reality the house just would detoriate more and more.

As it is to computer intensive to have multiple images for each house, with more and more damage, this is abstracted.

So there would usually not be a point where the shooter would say: 'Ah, that bullet did it, now I can target something else'.

(see pictures of the time of the french villages, most houses are standing, allthough the interior might be totally destructed).

Bertram<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bertram, I think you got it exactly right. And since it seems to have escaped the notice of the other posters, I quote you here.

Michael

[Grognerd_Fogman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark IV:

In fact, I sometimes wish for a "4.5" view- a direct overhead that was even more zoomed in. Handy in forests, too.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heya Mark what I like to do for inside stuff is to use #5 view an then use x2 zoom. Seems to work real well for positioning.

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Thanks for Athskin!

Grognerd_Fogman

[Grognerd_Fogman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TeAcH:

as it stands now

-tank continues to shoot at same piece of rubble even though the objective was met (destroyed building)

-infantry gets away

as I propose

-tank stops shooting at newly created pile of rubble.

-tank acquires fleeing infantry OR another target of opportunity

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, I was thinking since it is only 60 seconds of game time maybe for the time being you could pause the AF shelling for say 15 to 30 seconds (depending upon unit delay also) and then if the critters run outta the building you can nail them the next turn. This way you don't use up so much ammo, an even if they didn't come out or the building didn't get leveled you could try the same method the next turn. Interesting?

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Thanks for Athskin!

Grognerd_Fogman

[Grognerd_Fogman]

My bad Teach, I forgot you can't delay the firing, jus the movement...sheesh...lol

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Thanks for Athskin!

Grognerd_Fogman

[Andre76]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bertram:

I think the house collapsing at one point is a gross oversimplification of the real thing.

Most houses don't stand unscratched for a couple of shots, and then, with that one shot to many, collapse like a house of cards. In reality the house just would detoriate more and more.

Bertram<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, but what does this "symbolise" then? (when the house collapse)

The troops inside does certinaly suffer the effects of this "oversimplification" and a lot of them die. Whatever it is, it would be nice to assign the house as a target until it collapses (abstration or not).

André

[David Aitken]

I would like to second Bertram and Michael. Just because when a building is rubbled, it LOOKS 'flattened', doesn't mean it really is. Rubble is actually GOOD COVER. If you're firing at a building to suppress units inside (and why else would you be doing it?), and the building collapses, there is a STRONG possibility that there are STILL units inside. Just because you can't SEE units in the rubble doesn't mean they're not there.

On occasion I have wished one of my tanks would stop firing at a rubbled building. However, on other occasions I have been unaware that a rubbled building still contained enemy units, and if I had been, I would have continued shooting at it.

The bottom line: There is MUCH less difference between a building and a rubbled building than the _graphical_representation_ in the game would suggest. Nine times out of ten, if you have a reason to shell a building, you also have good reason to continue shelling it once it collapses. Units inside are not going to 'get away' - in CM, any unit that's just had a building fall on its head is going to be "Shaken" or "Pinned", and is not going anywhere fast.

To treat buildings like pillboxes would create some major anomalies in the game's code. A pillbox is a self-containted unit - essentially no different from an immobile tank, as far as programming is concerned. A building, on the other hand, is a scenery element, handled completely differently from pillboxes.

I can assure you that this minor perceived inconvenience is not nearly as screwy as the game would become, if Charles were to try to implement what you're talking about. It's not really a problem - it just seems that way, so live with it!

David

[This message has been edited by David Aitken (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Mikester]

As Fogman noted above, the only way I've found around this problem is to put a pause order of 15-30 seconds in along with the area fire order. Of course for heavy building that have not been hit at all it often takes a single tank (depending on gun size, etc.) more that one 60 second turn to bring the building down.

Mikester out.

[Wolf]

Don't jump on this one as too stupid until you've given it a good think through.

What if during the playback phase, you could still call up menus for units that ceased current actions that run-on, such as area fire?

You'd still set up most of the battle plan before commencing the turn, and the AI would still react to most of the circumstances that arise in the playback, but if a specific unit needed a specific instruction from you during that turn, you could still issue it. I can see a number of circumstances, including your area fire problem, where this facility would greatly enhance the adaptability of your original orders and give you just that little bit more satisfaction that the guys are doing what you want them to and not mis-interpreting your instructions.

Ken.

[David Aitken]

Wolf wrote:

> What if during the playback phase, you could still call up menus

The playback phase is effectively a pre-recorded video. After you press the "Go" button, the AI (or your opponent) gives its orders for the turn, and then the battle is fought. That blue bar at the bottom of the screen before the playback phase represents the turn. The battle is finished before you actually see it - it's all pre-processed, and you can't change anything.

David

[John Erickson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TeAcH:

What happens is this. Using my tank (in this case) I target a house that I know contains enemy infantry. I want to destroy the house. I sometimes have to fiddle with the unit's targeting "line" to select the house. Seems like the targeting line breaks right a the end of the house.

Issue two: The area fire continues throughout the whole action turn even if the house is destroyed (desired effect) on the first few shots. We have all seen this. The tank just blasts away at a spot in the rubble when the house we wanted destroyed is now gone. Your thoughts?

Thanks

TeAcH<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regarding the LOS breaking at the edge of the house I've seen this but it happens with all terrain as far as I can tell. You can't area fire too deep into woods either. I've found view "5" to be the best for area targeting.

As for the continued targetting I just had a priest stop targetting a house as soon as the infantry inside it bugged out. I was pleasantly surprised to say the least.

One thing I did find odd though was when I was area firing into some woods that were on a hill/ridge line. While I could see the woods, since it was on a hill any shots that went long went right through the woods and landed about 300 meters behind it. I can live with it but I wouldn't have minded seeing some of the shots exploding in the trees rather than weaving there way through a forest.

John