Jeff Heidman Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 What is the deal? How is discussing the ability of Americans in WW2 suddenly a issue that cannot be discussed on this board? Why is it that BTS is allowing some peoples flame wars (something I am admittedly guilty of myself) lead to the closing of topics that other people are having reasoned discussions about? Lastly (and leastly) it looks bad when Steve decides to close a thread (like the US combat abilities one), but decides to get his two cents in first. To post a message disagreeing with some people, and then ending it with a ban on further discussion really looks bad. I am sure he did not mean it that way, but that is how it looks, and I happened to agree with his argument (mostly) in this case. I think the moderators need to relax a little bit. Some threads have needed to be closed, but they seem to have gotten a pretty quick trigger for shutting down threads that have legit discussions ongoing. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 I don't really mind the "quick trigger" slap a lock on it (lately) approach. Maybe that is just one way of saying: "Hey, flaming, verabl nonsense and personal attacks and insults have no place on this board" (kindly take it elsewhere, e-mail or the usenet or where ever) I have no problem at all with that at all. Sort like play nice, or the lock goes on. I think this new maybe tighter padlock policy will increase the level of discusion to a more constructive dialogue as those who tend to flame alot here will see that positive, constructive, (even scholarily, if I may say so) dialogue is being encouraged by the moderators. Sounds good to me. -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Soldiers, how about having a timmed lock, Giving people a chance to put in any last words, or even make the post relivent befor it gets locked? ------------------ Cheers, Lord General Mr. Bill, 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 I agree, Tom. However, it seems that an aweful lot of threads have been closed lately purely because they're OT. This blows my mind since nobody seemed to have a problem with an epic 3000-post thread on the merits of Hamsters vs Gerbils. If people want to post in that thread - then fine...but don't close another thread just because it's OT and you're not interested in hearing the opinions being expressed there. Not sure why I'm defending this, especially since I didn't take part in most of the padlocked threads! Since this thread is soon to be locked, you better get in your "Hi Mom!" ------------------ "Gun damaged are rare on Shermans because they die like red shirts on Star Trek" - Slapdragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker: I agree, Tom. Since this thread is soon to be locked, you better get in your "Hi Mom!" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hi MT I hope the TCP/IP patch comes out around the end of Oct. Are we still one for our no holds barred tank slug fest? I'm still counting on you for my first TCP/IP match? I think we decided you were happy with the Axis and I'm happy with the Allies. I hope we can find a scenario and play it double blind or have someone, custom build one for us, with road bridges and rivers, and towns that all "work" rather than the risking the vageries of the quick battle. ok? did you say about 2500 points was good for you? Chat soon I have no e-mail now, only web but I'll fix that over the weekend I hope -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorak Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 posted this in the other thread too. but since they both relate. ********************** Mannheim Tanker, You might be surprised but I agree with you. But there has always been a case here of OT threads getting locked. I brought up the china/taiwan issue a long while ago. While having some good discussions I can understand it being locked for it being off-topic. Same with the Kursk incident. Now with the US navy vessel. They are in no way related to CM or WWII and I understand them being locked. Granted the other ones took longer to get locked, but in my opinion it was because there were less people to watch the board. The latest locked topics, Which were about WWII, I feel got locked due to the flamming nature of the post. Granted I enjoyed reading some in all of them, but they seemed to turn in to fights and insults too fast. As for our Peng/cesspool thread. As crazy as it is.. In a way it is on-topic in that everything in it is related to PBEM games. Even if silly. Every fair, no matter how great the rides or food, has to have a freak show. I also think KD is right in pointing to the General disscussion forum for the OT post. The reason I feel that it is not visited is because of its lack of content. If more people started posting topics there, I'm sure people would come. Same as I always check the tips/tactics area ect. One possible solution would be to post a thread here stating that a topic is there. Then people would know of it and migrate over. Maybe even giving it a bump every now and then to keep people informed. For example: The US navy incident today. Post the thread exactly as he did, outline the information as he did. Then at the end add a " Join the disscussion in the general discussion area." Maybe even link the thread in the message. I have no idea how BTS would treat this. But I feel it would be a great compromise. Your thoughts? Lorak ------------------ "Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."--William Butler Yeats Cesspool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 You betcha, Tom! I'll take any side, any (blind) scenario - as long as I get to beat you...maybe I can get Lawyer to give you some strategy pointers to make sure I win. LOL! You out there, Lawyer? I'll track you down when the TCP/IP patch comes out, Tom. We might be in the geriatric center by then at this rate... I answered your post in the other thread, Lorak. Meet me over there ------------------ "Gun damaged are rare on Shermans because they die like red shirts on Star Trek" - Slapdragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hussar Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 To the Moderators Re the timed thread/lock question above. Please remember the worldwide timezone nature of this forum. Most threads are well advanced before we in our upside down part of the world get to read them, let alone join in. I was just about to post the other day when the thread got locked on me. Also I agree putting a point of view and then locking the thread is not a good move. I know that this is a private forum designed to boost CM, but we overseas types are customers too. Well I will be when I get delivery...Hint !. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What is the deal? How is discussing the ability of Americans in WW2 suddenly a issue that cannot be discussed on this board?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Lorak summed it up well. That thread was already heated enough and, based on similar discussions in the past, was not going to do anything but get more heated and add nothing of intellectual value to this BBS. Therefore, it was locked up. I did, however, let it continue for several pages instead of locking up after the first post. No credit for that I suppose... We have had a long standing policy to close up OT threads. Yes, we do let some stay going, but the more OT they are the more likely they will be closed up EVEN if there is nothing wrong with the way it is being discussed. Threads that DO have a tendency to become flamefests, and are OT, have no place on this BBS. Having said that, we do try and be reasonable. That is why some stay and others are closed up. If you want us to do one or the other, *all* OT threads will be locked up the second they are found. Personally, I like the way it is now. Sorry about getting in my 2 cents in the last thread, but I don't see what difference it makes if I locked it up when I did or after 2 more people posted but did NOT respond to my last post. However, I usually try not to post opinions on the topic before closing it up. BTW, theads are locked up manually. There is no way they can be locked up by some sort of timer. We generally work during the night in the US, so this means when you Euros or Aussies/NZers are posting we are too. Thanks, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Gots to Agree with BTS. There seems to be large number of pretty bright folk here on this board. Unfortunately, along with sharp intellect, there is often a larger ego rolled into the package. All to often we seem to get caught up in nonchalant comments and lose the context of what is being discussed. I have often thought that if we posted to forums in a manner similar to the way we would talk face to face with people, many of the pissing contests would be eliminated. If someone gets pissy…ignore them. There are plenty of other folk here that discuss things in a reasonable manner. The fact that we have anonymity when posting to forums shouldn’t really give us the right to be rude or brash to each other. We’re all basically here because we have common interests and a common hobby. Now lets all sit down and sing “Kum By Yah” together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holdit Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: What is the deal? How is discussing the ability of Americans in WW2 suddenly a issue that cannot be discussed on this board? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think there's a solution that would allow the thorniest of issues to be sensibly debated. If you look at rules 1 and 2 they cover most of the flamey stuff, and should also be applied to the stuff that causes flames, like great big sweeping, unsupported generalisations. If people are constrained to not only express opinions in a non-confrontational manner, but also to back them up with somne kind of reasoning, you're more likely to get a bit of mutual respect from opposing camps. How to back it up? Instead of closing the thread where the flames have started, just douse the flames themselves. Delete postings that contravene the rules and spririt if the board, along with any postings that quote from them, so that less people will be inclined to be dragged into responding to trolls. In this way, a sensible discussion could continue while the more exciteable posters either calm down or just stay out of it. I've seen it work elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Holdit: Instead of closing the thread where the flames have started, just douse the flames themselves. Delete postings that contravene the rules and spririt if the board, along with any postings that quote from them, so that less people will be inclined to be dragged into responding to trolls. In this way, a sensible discussion could continue while the more exciteable posters either calm down or just stay out of it. I've seen it work elsewhere.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ermmm, this is called censorship. I would have thought most Americans who pride themselves in their constitution for the right to freedom of speech would object to such a suggestion. Regards Jim R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffRaider Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 I don't especially mind the speedlocking of flame wars, or burgeoning ones, but it bugs me when a thread is deemed "unnecessary" like the Borg threatening assimilation and immediately shut down. So what if it's unnecessary? If it isn't relevant, then it'll drift downwards, sure as being locked. If it doesn't drift downwards, then people are at least a little interested in it and what's so wrong about that? [This message has been edited by JeffRaider (edited 10-13-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geier Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: Ermmm, this is called censorship. I would have thought most Americans who pride themselves in their constitution for the right to freedom of speech would object to such a suggestion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thank ye gods for the Americans (and your constitution) then. Us other oppressed and censored people would have nowhere to go if it wasn't for you. Seriously, this is a private board and the owners can run it however they want. I agree with you that deleting posts is no good, mostly because the evidence for banning someone will disappear, enabling individuals to come back and claim they were "mistreated". It is fine the way it is imo. ------------------ Johan "The succesful execution of a well devised plan often looks like luck to saps." Dashiell Hammett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: Ermmm, this is called censorship. I would have thought most Americans who pride themselves in their constitution for the right to freedom of speech would object to such a suggestion. Regards Jim R.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Welcome to the Common Misconceptions About The Bill Of Rights Show! The First Amendment ONLY covers restriction of free speech by the government. A private organization, such as BTS, can set whatever rules controlling speech they damn well please. That is their perogative. Your perogative, if you choose not to accept those rules, is to leave. Padlocking or otherwise censoring threads on a private forum is in no way contrary to the First Amendment. ------------------ Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holdit Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: Ermmm, this is called censorship. I would have thought most Americans who pride themselves in their constitution for the right to freedom of speech would object to such a suggestion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, we're not all Americans, and I don't believe that would be as much a form of censorship as locking up the entire thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted October 14, 2000 Author Share Posted October 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann: Ermmm, this is called censorship. I would have thought most Americans who pride themselves in their constitution for the right to freedom of speech would object to such a suggestion. Regards Jim R.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The Constitution provides you no rights to speech on a privately owned forum. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted October 14, 2000 Share Posted October 14, 2000 There is another reason for some of the "speed locks" you have been seeing lately. Capacity. You might have remembered the board going down the other night for several hours? That was not caused by the upgrade, the upgrade actually got us back up. Put simply, we are WAY over the limits that UBB suggests for both post and thread count. If not for any other reason that would help explain why we sometimes cut a O/T thread short. Basically if it isn't related in some way to Combat Mission it is using up system resources that would be better utilized to a more apt discussion. There are a few guiding principals with the way we run things around here (and yes, these are OUR rules which you have agreed to when you registered!) and the primary one is that we do not delete threads, EVER. That would be censorship of the worst kind and we have no desire to do start down that slope. We will however, pretty much whenever we feel it necessary, lock a thread that is spiraling out of control, massively off topic or is of the ilk that in our educated opinion is one which will begin to drift into the other two areas. Every off topic thread or post pushes down a valid message lower on the list and makes it that much more for someone to answer a question or give aid. Dan, Steve, and I all monitor this forum daily and it takes an amazing amount of time to police every thread and sometimes a thread is locked because we can tell it is going to take an inordinate amount of time to keep an eye on it. Think of it this way, we can either work on CM1 and CM2 or spend every minute here making sure everyone plays nice. Add in the fact of capacity and the results in the locks being thrown out a little more frequently but not any less justified. There are 3 times more people keeping an eye on threads here and that means things will shut down sooner than when just Steve did his nightly scan. It isn't that we don't want you guys having fun, we actually love some of the humor and comedy that comes out from here but when that starts to bury the other game specific posts then we need to step in some and return the balance. I have long been a big supporter of the Combat Mission Community and still am bit that doesn't mean I will set back and watch as two or three members of that community begin to wail on each other in another pointless and utterly stupid flame match. One last point about the Peng thread. we feel it's better to keep the denizens of the cesspool together in one area then allowing them to spread or god forbid, spawn. we also DID NOT kill that thread. It completely self destructed as it began to write over itself, sorta a self inflected consumption which when I think about it doesn't surprise me in the least. So that's the story. Have fun, kid around but play clean and remember that when it's all said and done this a Forum dedicated to Combat Mission first and foremost. And there is always the Chat on my webpage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted October 14, 2000 Share Posted October 14, 2000 Steve, shouldnt you be doing something a wee bit more constructive? Mad "Thread Eliminator" Matt can handle it. And if you come along and lock up his threads he may become a shell of the man we all know and fear, err love. Remember, if Rosanne can con. err get someone to marry her, then by golly Matt should be able to lock up threads. Ray Please send your support in check or money order to... MaddMatt Cray Computer Fund 1232 Dupid Ln Cinncinatti, Oh 67655 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted October 14, 2000 Share Posted October 14, 2000 Someone can always start another board or newsgroup that will allow "off-topic" posting and flames. No one ever said this has to be the only place to talk. <shrug> Kitty =^..^= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted October 14, 2000 Share Posted October 14, 2000 Cincinnati area codes always begin with 452... Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! Combat Mission HQ CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission CMHQ-Annex Host of the Combat Mission WebRing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted October 15, 2000 Share Posted October 15, 2000 I'm with Madmatt on this one. If it is OT, lock it. There are billions of other rooms/forums/boards to discuss ethics/politics/whatever. This is about CM and it should stay that way. Fred ------------------ "I got signals, I got readings, in front and behind of us!" - PFC Hudson on LV-426 mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest barrold713 Posted October 15, 2000 Share Posted October 15, 2000 Matt: I swear you are the freakin' whip!!! (that's a compliment) You always come through with the reasonable, measured response to these situations. BTW the comments about the Constitution are correct. The Bill of Rights (1st 10 amendments for our foreign friends) purpose is to restrict the government's power to infringe the liberty of the individual. If it were otherwise you could tell your boss what you really think of him/her and not get fired for example or perhaps BTS could be sued for violating someone's civil rights for locking a racist flamefest. This would be bad. ------------------ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb discussing what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: What is the deal? How is discussing the ability of Americans in WW2 suddenly a issue that cannot be discussed on this board? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No doubt. Considering it was claimed to be "off topic" yet the several varients of "Best and worst movies" go on un-locked. How about the "fate of tanks after the war"-type threads. Threads no where near on topic but US +'s or -'s in WWII are considered somehow more OT... go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo Posted October 16, 2000 Share Posted October 16, 2000 The number of locks is directly proportional to the number of moderators. (They have doubled in number.). ------------------ As I walk through the Valley of Death, I will fear nothing, for I am the meanest mother*#*#** in the valley. (George S. Patton) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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