CM2 & Russian Squads

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Anybody out there in the know (or possibly conjecture) who is aware how large the Russian squad sizes will be in CM2? I'm assuming they will probably be about 15 men to each squad and if this is the case then I'm assuming BTS will have to release a new graphic for squads with 4 figures per unit. In this way one would be able to get a reasonable handle on how many casualties the squads have been taking.

Oh, and another thing. Assuming 15 man squads will be modelled with most of those guys armed with Mosin Nagant bolt action rifles, I hope the generally accepted inferior range & often poorer training of the riflemen will be reflected in their firepower at various extended ranges. Otherwise those standard Russian squads could end up being the new "Ubermensch" of Combat Mission!

Thoughts, critiques, comments all welcome.

Regards

Jim R.

[The Commissar]

Nice post Jim...never thought about it myself, but now that you bring it up I suppose we should discuss this with BTS. I'd like to hear views about this myself, so I'm bumping this post.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Rebane]

There were work battalions as well in Soviet army.

Maybe we can see squads armed with shovels and saws...

Red Estonian battalions were sent to the rear areas as work battalions cause in the battle for Velikje Luki some "comrades" changed sides and joined encircled!!! German garrison in Velikje Luki.

Estonian battalions were allowed to fight again 1944 to reoccupy Estonia and so our people ended up killing eachother...

Oops this was offtopic, I guess

[PzKpfw 1]

A Russian Rifle Platoon consisted of 3 squads of 9 men each, The squad was built around the LMG and as long as their were eneough men to maintain the LMG, the squad was kept on the line.

2 Rifle Sqd types existed in the Soviet Shtat:

Type 1 -. 1 Sqd Ldr, 1 LMG gunner, assist, gunner, 6 Riflemen

Type 2 - 1 Sqd Ldr, 2 LMG gunners, 2 Asst, gunners 4 Riflemen.

I.e. an 1942 Rifle Company consisted of a Rifle Co HQ with: 19 officers & men, 5 SMGs, 2 snipers, & 3 Rifle Plts with: 5 officers, 1 political officer, 30 NCO, 138 enlisted men with 12 LMG's, 9 SMGs, & 11 Snipers.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 10-15-2000).]

[Guest Rommel22]

Good info pzkpfw 1. I hope BTS gets it right, but I am sure they will. Theyt did a great job on CM.

I would of though the Russians would of had more men in their platoons. Guess not. Thanx again.

------------------

From the Das Reich book as said by a German soldier

"when the Russians reached us, we opened fire, the first wave had no weapons.

The second wave didn't either (fire fodder). The 3rd and 4th had weapons and opened fire on us.

By this time we were low on ammo, but we drove them back."

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rommel22:

I would of though the Russians would of had more men in their platoons. Guess not. Thanx again.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Soviets found the addition of more men to the Rifle sqd did not substatantialy increase its effectiveness. The Sqd size was also because of losses in 1941 & 1942. Rifle Divs were the lowest priority organization on recieveing replacements in the Soviet armed forces they were also the last to be pulled out of the line to be rested & refitted etc.

Originaly the 1938 Shtat (TO&E) for a Soviet Rifle Squad was 12 men: 1 Sqd Ldr, 1 LMG, and asst gunner, 1 Rifle grenadier & asst, and 6 Riflemen, with a Rifle Company consisting of an HQ with 1 Co, 1 political officer, a 1st Sgt, 1, asst, & clerk, & 3 Plts with 4 Sqds each and 1 HMG Plt with, 6 officers, 180 NCO's & enlisted men, The Company had: 12 LMGs, 12 grenade launchers, & 120 rifles.

The Submachine gun Companies formed after the war began, consisted of sqds of 8 men with Companies consisting of 3 Plt's with 3 Sqds, each Plt, & for a total of 80 - 95 men, with no other weapons.

These Companies were not deployed in the same manner as Rifle Co's but instead were used as a Rifle Regt, Rifle Brigade, reserve, to seal penetrations etc, or commited where the effective range of their SMGs was feasible with full support of the Regts, artillery etc. The SMG sqd development was also influenced from the shortage of APC's in that the T-34 could externaly carry exactly 8 men.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 10-16-2000).]

[killmore]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kanonier Reichmann:

& often poorer training of the riflemen will be reflected in their firepower at various extended ranges.

Jim R.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree with this point completly. SOVIET (not russian) squads should not be penalized by poor training in any way.

The soviet veteran squad should as good as german veteran squad!

But normal battle should be regular/veteran german squads vs. conscripts/regular Soviet troops.

This is how poor quality should be modeled - not by penalizing the squad fire power.

[The Commissar]

I agree with killmore. A Veteran is a Veteran no matter which side he is on. Of course, the Soviets should usually be allowed Concripts in large numbers.

What I suggest (and this is purely IMHO) is that the Soviet Conscripts, Greens and Regulars should cost slightly less then their German counterparts. In this way, the sheer amount of man power available to the Soviets can be modeled. For Veterans and above however, the cost should be the same as for the Germans, since Veteran soldiers were trained the hard way and were in rare supply on both sides.

Again, just my HO

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Guest Silesian-jaeger]

I think Cm2 should introduce HQ runners into the game. Who else is going to bring the Vodka forward?

[Guest grunto]

cm2 should have a 'hero' unit. it would be a single-man unit capable of great heroism - as long as he didn't get hit.

this would help reflect the type of guy you might find once in awhile on the eastern front - the kind of guy with anywhere from couple of dozen infantry-to-tank kills up to a couple hundred of them. there are accounts of individual soliders from both sides who were either 'lucky' or 'good' or both.

as with just about any infantry soldier who continues with fight after fight, most all of them probably were injured or killed eventually, but in the meantime each of them racked up impressive numbers of personal 'kills.'

that would really add some 'dash' the the game...

thanks for your consideration

andy

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by killmore:

I disagree with this point completly. SOVIET (not russian) squads should not be penalized by poor training in any way.

The soviet veteran squad should as good as german veteran squad!

But normal battle should be regular/veteran german squads vs. conscripts/regular Soviet troops.

This is how poor quality should be modeled - not by penalizing the squad fire power.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, fair point about the level of training etc. but as you say, it is much more likely there will be an abundance of Conscripts compared with Veteran squads unless it is an elite Guards unit perhaps. Oh, and I didn't mean to offend anyone by referring to Soviets as Russian, old habits die hard.

BTW, thanks very much PzKwI for all that fascinating info on the Soviet squads. I don't know where you dig all this info up from but you must have one hell of a library at home!

Regards

Jim R.

[Admiral]

I wonder how they will represent Soviet artillery? I've read that the USSR had impressive preliminary barrages but their on-call support was pretty bad.

Anyone familiar with Russian artillery doctrine?

Also, didn't their commanders usually have a shortage of radios? Perhaps they ought to get an extra command delay because of this?

Nelson

[PzKpfw 1]

I'm confused here on why BTS has to model specificly model conscripts etc? all they have to model IMHO is standard Red Army structures, the experience level etc, is already covered by CM with Regular, Vet Crack, etc. Unless the scale changes of CM2 I don't see how BTS could model the sheer manpower numbers & failings of all these external factors

Modeling the changeing skill of Soviet troops will be a challenge IMHO for BTS if they choose to, as the Soviets got better by year, especialy Infantry officers, Ie, over 300 Inf Officer training schools were set up in 1942, the Inf Plt leader course ran 1 year in 1942 & was increased to 18 months in 1943.

So Soviet Inf Plt leaders by 1943 were much better trained then their 1941 counterparts, they also promoted over 200,000 vetran Sgts to 2nd Lt's, after the Political officers post was abolished in 1942 over 10,000 experienced PO's were made Inf Plt ldrs to make up losses of Inf officers & to provide leaders while the schools ran their course.

One also has to take into account Ie, how a Soviet Rifle Sqd & Plt ran, as the Plt leader & Sqd ldrs determined the formation, deployment feilds of fire, manouver etc, as well as expected to keep visual contact with their sqd members for C&C, although arguably never as tactily adapt as German officers, Soviet officers despite whats been written since the war, were expected & later taught to take personel iniative, and exploit favorible situations.

This is another aspect that it will be interesting to how or if CM2 handles all the evolutions Ie, will Soviet Rifle squad point costs increase from 42 on to reflect the better trained Plt Ldrs & Sqd performance etc.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 10-16-2000).]

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Admiral:

Anyone familiar with Russian artillery doctrine?

Also, didn't their commanders usually have a shortage of radios? Perhaps they ought to get an extra command delay because of this?

Nelson<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Admiral check out:

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/011668.html

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

[Juardis]

Not my original idea, but I agree with the person who proposed that each squad/platoon include a commissar that will shoot any soldier that tries to run away, be it panic or otherwise. That's the way it was and that's the way it should be modeled.

------------------

Jeff Abbott

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juardis:

Not my original idea, but I agree with the person who proposed that each squad/platoon include a commissar that will shoot any soldier that tries to run away, be it panic or otherwise. That's the way it was and that's the way it should be modeled.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only problem I have with this Jeff, is the lowest structure an PO was attached to was a Company & only 1 PO to a Co, their was no PO at the Plt or Sqd lvl.

Also the PO position was abolished in 1942. If anyone was going to execute cowards etc, it would have been the Plt or Sqd leader or squdmates as in Stalingrad, or when NKVD troops were present.

in cases when the PO actualy did this it was because at the time, he was present when the troop or troops ran, & had them shot or as in most cases where NKVD troops were present, & backstopping the Co or Plt to ensure the troops fought, generaly incidents were reported then the offender or offenders were found and brought before the PO, who handed out the punishment on the spot.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 10-16-2000).]

[Admiral]

Thanks PzKpfw 1 -- that was very informative. It will be really interesting to see how the evolution of the Red Army is rendered.

As one German officer said, "The Russians began the war as good fighters--they ended it as good soldiers."

My guess is that a lot of the battles where Soviet artillery played a big role won't be in there, because who wants to play a game where you are getting blasted to bits by the huge concentrations of artillery the Soviets historically had? Static situations don't seem to be what BTS wants (e.g. the decision not to do the Normandy beach landings in CM).

Fortunately, there were plenty of mobile battles on the East Front which should provide many, many great scenarios.

Nelson

[Guest Silesian-jaeger]

Two-man sniper team. Spotter n sniper. (sniper carries the vodka)

------------------

"In one (German) town, Private Honey stood next to an

elderly German man and a ten-year-old boy. As the Shermans and brand-new

Pershings rumbled by the boy said,'Deutsches Panzer lind besser.' Honey

looked down at him and asked,'If

German tanks are better,

why aren't they here?' "

quote from Stephen E. Ambrose, "Citizen Soldiers"

[kipanderson]

Hi,

when it comes to CM2 my big fear is that Steve and Charles "will" try to model the low quality of Soviet officer training during the first two years of the war. The reason why I believe this "should not be modelled" is that in CM you are the officers. In CM you play the part of the platoon leader, the company commander and the battalion commander. So there is no way of modelling the lower quality of Soviet officers in the first part of the war without introducing artificial restrictions on what "you", as a Soviet officer, can do. The way Squad Leader dealt with this problem was to "fix" the result be artificial lowering the quality of some Soviet maneuver units, the restrictions on the range of Soviet rifle units is a good example of this. I feel this approach is not the way to go. Far better to have Soviet maneuver units accurately represented and just except that the gap in ability between two CM players is not likely to be as great as the average gap between Soviet and German officers was in the first two years of the war. For a feel of how it really was play the AI.

It is also worth noting that the latest research to come out of the Russian archives suggests that man for man, unit for unit, the Soviets were just as good soldiers as the Germans, on average, during the second half of the war. Therefor there is no need to even try and "fix" the result regarding the post-Kursk faze of the war. There is no short or quick way to explain why this the case but when I have time I will do a far longer post giving detailed reasons why it is now believed Soviet combat effectiveness was as high as German combat effectiveness, on average, during the second half of the war.

All the best,

Kip.

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Admiral:

Anyone familiar with Russian artillery doctrine?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For CM purpose; lots of on map artillery. (Off map artillery quite often being 12cm mortars.)

Cheers

Olle

[IntelWeenie]

My thoughts on all this:

1. No firepower tweaks to account for poor training. That's what the experience rating is for.

1a. For random QBs, make the chance of getting low quality troops higher early in the war.

2. What AT devices will Soviet squads have available (Molotov cocktails, AT grenades, etc.)? (No dogmines! )

3. No two-man sniper teams. The sniper/sharpshooter debate continues...

4. PO's (commisars) will be a rough issue to decide. It seems everyone wants them to shoot their own troops all the time. I have one question to ask about it: does anyone have any documented evidence from a reliable source on how often this happened? I have no doubt it did happen, but I have read accounts of it happening in other armies and yet it is not modeled in CM (late war SS "flying courts" come to mind). I have also read (and heard) some stories of PO's that have been better leaders than the "regular" officers. Will this be modeled too?

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Cats aren't clean, they're covered with cat spit.

[Tiger]

Intrestingly enough, Germany also mass-produced 'molotov cocktails' for use on the eastern front.

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/8172/panzerfaust9.htm#mol

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie:

My thoughts on all this:

1. No firepower tweaks to account for poor training. That's what the experience rating is for.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

1a. For random QBs, make the chance of getting low quality troops higher early in the war.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds good.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

2. What AT devices will Soviet squads have available (Molotov cocktails, AT grenades, etc.)? (No dogmines! )

3. No two-man sniper teams. The sniper/sharpshooter debate continues...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

4. PO's (commisars) will be a rough issue to decide. It seems everyone wants them to shoot their own troops all the time. I have one question to ask about it: does anyone have any documented evidence from a reliable source on how often this happened? I have no doubt it did happen, but I have read accounts of it happening in other armies and yet it is not modeled in CM (late war SS "flying courts" come to mind). I have also read (and heard) some stories of PO's that have been better leaders than the "regular" officers. Will this be modeled too?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, good point intel. Not I I'm not sure any such source exists. Yes the SS FC's shot and hung(to save bullets) a lot of German troops for suspected desertion etc, as well especialy in 44 - 45 & no one is asking for that to be modeled.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 10-16-2000).]

[Juardis]

Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

The only problem I have with this Jeff, is the lowest structure an PO was attached to was a Company & only 1 PO to a Co, their was no PO at the Plt or Sqd lvl.

OK, thanks. I wasn't sure to which level POs were assigned (I'm guessing PO means political observer?). But there is evidence of a 2nd line of troops whose sole purpose was to shoot any front line troops that tried to run away (Stalingrad: The fateful seige, 1942-43 by Anthony Beevor). Admittedly, this only occurred early in the war (i.e., Stalingrad and before), but the purpose was the same - to shoot anybody who retreated. But the point is very important. The Russian troops would be classified as Conscript or Green in CM2. Conscript or Green troops have a tendency to break easily. If, however, they knew they were going to be shot for running away, Conscript or no, they'd probably stay (and did stay for the most part).

Also the PO position was abolished in 1942. If anyone was going to execute cowards etc, it would have been the Plt or Sqd leader or squdmates as in Stalingrad, or when NKVD troops were present.

yep, agreed. I was mainly talking early war years. At some point during Stalingrad, Stalin decreased the authority (not abolished though) that POs had so thereafter they are militarily irrelevant.

------------------

Jeff Abbott

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by Juardis:

OK, thanks. I wasn't sure to which level POs were assigned (I'm guessing PO means political observer?). But there is evidence of a 2nd line of troops whose sole purpose was to shoot any front line troops that tried to run away (Stalingrad: The fateful seige, 1942-43 by Anthony Beevor). Admittedly, this only occurred early in the war (i.e., Stalingrad and before), but the purpose was the same - to shoot anybody who retreated. But the point is very important. The Russian troops would be classified as Conscript or Green in CM2. Conscript or Green troops have a tendency to break easily. If, however, they knew they were going to be shot for running away, Conscript or no, they'd probably stay (and did stay for the most part).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff, this was basicly the NKVD function the Regt & higher Political officers had access to NKVD security troops, these were used in many cases early in the war Ie, Stalingrad to backstop Red Army formations where troops breaking for whatever reason was suspected.

To actualy simulate this is beyond CM's current scale IMHO as it was realy a rear echelon function, as these troops didn't partcipate in combat, but acted in an security role.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

yep, agreed. I was mainly talking early war years. At some point during Stalingrad, Stalin decreased the authority (not abolished though) that POs had so thereafter they are militarily irrelevant.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For all intents and purposes the PO was abolished this is evident in late 1942 when over 10,000 Company level etc, PO's where their combat exp qualified, were absorbed & given Company & Plt level command positions. The PO's did maintain a presence in the higher level organisations though with much diminished capacity in an advisory role.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 10-16-2000).]