Advice on Beating the Tigers

[Guest Captitalistdoginchina]

Hi guys,

I saw a earlier thread (about cherries) but did not find what i wanted. I am sort of re-posting it here under a different title because it is a good question. I often see Tigers, King Tigers and Panthers in my PBEM games and they seem to be the Tanks of choice for many. I will usually encounter at least one of them and i also like to use them too.

What advice can you veterens give for tactics on how to take them out. Getting a flanking shot is not that easy and i have had and seen results from Anti-tank teams......but how about Allied vehicles and Tanks - what is the best way to use them effectively? Also the Tanks i have used never seem to use Tungsten rounds even after 5 or 6 ricochets - surely if the tank commander wants to live he will load up Tungsten whenever he is facing a formidable tank such as a Tiger or Panther G.

Any comments?

CDIC

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"Death solves all problems - no man no problem"

J.V.Stalin, 1918

[Michlos]

Using the Lowsky and Tophat technique and the speed of the american tanks is about the only chance you have to take on Tigers and other large german tanks.

I would suggest reading Jim's AT guide on my page and also the tank tactics to learn more about lowsky and tophat.

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< All gave some, some gave ALL>

Owner of MiNa's CMBO Page

http://www.combat-mission.com

[Jarmo]

Tiger is not that bad, anything with 76 can kill it frontally.

M10 is good.

Panther is a bit trickier, you either get a flank shot or use

a big gun. Jacksons 90mm kills both Panther or Tiger easily and

doesn't cost too much.

If you use the British, it's easier. Loads of tanks with 17pdr,

and that's enough against a panther.

In short, if going against heavy tanks, always pack along a few

good tank destroyers.

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Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of

our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

[Cybeq]

I try to avoid one on one duals with Tigers or Panthers. They always seem to kill me regardless of who got off the first shot. The best way I have found is to attack simutaneously from two (or more) directions. The enemy panzer now has to deal with incoming fire from multiple angles. You stand a good chance of losing a tank but you may just get him. The last time I used this tactic I had overwhelming numbers and had isolated a Panther. I rushed his 12 o clock with four Shermans while an M-10 TD advanced on his 5 o clock and another M-10 on his 7 o clock. One of my Shermans got immobilized but that was it. Well, unless you count the Panzerscheck team hidden in some scattered trees 75 meters from my nearest M-10. He took out an M-10 as soon as it stopped.

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"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence." -Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

[Das Boot]

The Tiger's biggest drawback is the really slow turret, so if you can work around it you can usually get a couple of shots off before it rotates to fire at you. Cover and movement are key.

[pucker]

Combined arms is another key. Blind them with smoke then rush them.

Pucker

[ScoutPL]

Dont use allied tanks to scout with, use your infantry, it takes longer but its much easier to find/suppress any antitank assets as soon as they pop up if your infantry is deployed well forward. Once the enemy deploys his tanks to deal with the infantry threat, use the speed and manueverability of your tanks to get in multiple angle shots. I always operate my tanks in pairs if I can, this way they can support each other. Even if their not having success in penetrating the enemy armor, together they stand a good chance of sufficently suppressing the tank or shocking the crew.

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

I have 2 main experiences with this :

"Whittman- Villers Bocage" : usually his Tiger got KOed by the Fireflys : these thinks traverse and reload much faster than the Tiger, and their 17pdr cut the Tiger armor as butter... But occasionnally the lowly Stuarts get a KILL with a "weak point" hit: they fire at such a high ROF and move fast, so they often have 4 or 5 shots before being annilihated by the 88mm...

"Swatting at Tigers" : this is a SL scenario port, with 2 paratroops Cos having to deal with 6-7 Tiger with just their Zooks !!

When played against the AI I can usually knock nearly all of them with cautious approach and side shots by the Bazooka teams, but only AFTER the accompanying infantry has been disposed of...

But OK, I have numerous casualties

[Ari Maenpaa]

Currently US 76mm with tungsten round can kill ANY German tank in the game (1.05) FRONTALLY. I got a good demonstration about this in Paderborn-scenario when two of my King Tigers got KO'ed frontally by Shermans.

The only problem right now is that tacAI won't use tungsten against Panthers and Tigers and thus makes them seem to be tougher than they are.

When this problem gets fixed, turret speeds become the main deciding factor in tank duels (faster gets the first shot). And the German tanks with slooow turrets will most likely become DOG MEAT.

Ari

[Schugger]

The allied 76 mm gun can deal with Tigers well frontally as they don't have sloped armour. However, you need to hit the Panther`s turret to penetrate it frontally unless you use tungsten rounds, of course.

Perhaps this is the reason behind why those AFVs with the 76mm gun don't use their tungsten rounds against Panthers as they can penetrate it's turret at a distance over 500 meters.

Post testing edit

Well, 500 meters isn't a sure bet with the 76mm gun vs the Tiger's turret as it has an 11° angle.

But I've found out something of the tungsten issue:

The M18 never used any tungsten rounds against the Panther ( which was without any ammo and digged in) at a range of 500 meters. It got an " Kill: OK" report when targeting.

Then I made the same test with a Jagdpanther, and guess what happened?

The M18 used tungsten rounds for for any shot in any testing run I made.

So the clue behind the tungsten rounds is maybe, if you have a good chance of killing with normal AP no tungsten is used, otherwise it is.

[This message has been edited by Schugger (edited 09-27-2000).]

[tailz]

I shoot'n'scoot with my M4's. I also make heavy use of 'fast move'. Speed is a Sherman's best defense against Kraut heavies. This is especially true if you can close the range on a Tiger/Panther because the M4 turret is faster. I almost never hunt, unless I'm looking for infantry or light vehicles.

I generally enjoy playing with Shermans... it becomes a real battle of maneuver.

[Jeff Heidman]

What tailz said.

In a game of Elsfdorf I had a 75mm armed Sherman kill two Tigers with side shots. They were moving laterally to the Tigers from cover to LOS. As soon as the Tiger comes into view, that gyrostabilized gun swung around, and put a round through the side turret at 200+ while at full speed.

Use your speed. Getting flanking shots is not as hard as you think. YOU MUST BE PATIENT!!!!

Fighting the German armor takes time and finesse. Many people complain about how hard it is because they are used to playing the uber-tanks and they require minimal thought. You MUST accentuate your advantages and minimize the enemies. This means keep moving, never, ever let him get a shot at you without turning his turret first, and close the range, but not directly.

Good luck.

Jeff Heidman

[Private Pike]

Ask Sarge how to deal with Tigers. I lost 2 and a P4 in one turn in our PBEM. My fault. got to cocky. He was using M10s. Got one in the Turret side and managed to damage the gun of the other.

[This message has been edited by Private Pike (edited 09-27-2000).]

[ianc]

One word:

HELLCATS!

ianc

[Jeff Heidman]

Actually, the best way to beat the Tigers was displayed by the US Army in WW2.

What you do is, you get a bunch of heavy bombers and bomb the crap out of the oil production centers.

Then, you get a bunch of medium bombers and bomb the crap out of the the transport network.

Then, you get a bunch of tactical fighter-bombers and blow away all the trucks and ammo carriers that supply the Tigers with fuel, food, ammunition, etc. Some think you should attack the Tigers themselves, but this is generally ineffective, despite the reports of the USAAF detroying every Tiger ever produced during WW2 6 times in the three months surrounding D-Day.

By the time your Shermans show up, the hungry, ammo-less, and fuel-less Tiger crews abandon the tank and destroy it for you.

Problem solved.

Jeff Heidman

[Tiger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When this problem gets fixed, turret speeds become the main deciding factor in tank duels (faster gets the first shot). And the German tanks with slooow turrets will most likely become DOG MEAT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it is a problem. German tanks were certainly never "dog-meat" to allied tanks, except when outnumbered (any tank that isn't going to get reamed when outnumbered?). Tungsten was not really all that common, nor were the 76 mm shermans/90mm TDs. Tigers are certainly not uber-tanks; most of mine tend to get taken out quite easily by bazookas/AT teams/75mm. This is why I try to be cautious with them (with any tank). "Powerful eggshells" I think someone referred to tanks.

The invincible Tiger myth lives on! Hooray!!

-john

[Hiram Sedai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

Actually, the best way to beat the Tigers was displayed by the US Army in WW2.

What you do is, you get a bunch of heavy bombers and bomb the crap out of the oil production centers.

Then, you get a bunch of medium bombers and bomb the crap out of the the transport network.

Then, you get a bunch of tactical fighter-bombers and blow away all the trucks and ammo carriers that supply the Tigers with fuel, food, ammunition, etc. Some think you should attack the Tigers themselves, but this is generally ineffective, despite the reports of the USAAF detroying every Tiger ever produced during WW2 6 times in the three months surrounding D-Day.

By the time your Shermans show up, the hungry, ammo-less, and fuel-less Tiger crews abandon the tank and destroy it for you.

Problem solved.

Jeff Heidman<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been reading a book by John Keegan and he basically said the same thing.

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"If you want battle, come to me!" - Lieutenant Worf

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Actually, the best way to beat the Tigers was displayed by the US Army in WW2.

What you do is, you get a bunch of heavy bombers and bomb the crap out of the oil production centers.

Then, you get a bunch of medium bombers and bomb the crap out of the the transport network.

Then, you get a bunch of tactical fighter-bombers and blow away all the trucks and ammo carriers that supply the Tigers with fuel, food, ammunition, etc. Some think you should attack the Tigers themselves, but this is generally ineffective, despite the reports of the USAAF detroying every Tiger ever produced during WW2 6 times in the three months surrounding D-Day.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

USA! USA!

It's official, no other air force EXISTED!

[Ari Maenpaa]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger:

I don't think it is a problem. German tanks were certainly never "dog-meat" to allied tanks, except when outnumbered (any tank that isn't going to get reamed when outnumbered?). Tungsten was not really all that common, nor were the 76 mm shermans/90mm TDs.

-john<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No offence, but it seems that you are referring generally to history and I'm referring directly to CM's game mechanics. If something historically wasn't a problem for the German tanks doesn't automatically mean that it's not a problem for the German tanks in the game. Even in CM.

I assume that the German tank corps didn't discover their slower turret traverse speeds too much a hindrance against western allied tanks, because I haven't read many German battle accounts even mentioning that fact. They knew how to compensate for it.

But in CM tacAI can't compensate for slower turret speed because it can't anticipate. And that is acceptable. In a certain other game I have seen how this kind of anticipation happens. Those tank crews seemed to have abnormal telepathic powers That is no way to go.

Anyway this leads to the fact that when two tanks from opposing sides randomly encounter each other on CM battlefield, the one with faster turret will USUALLY shoot first. And if that tank happens to be the Sherman M4A3(76) using tungsten round then goodbye Tiger or Panther or anything smaller.

It's just that right now the Sherman is too reluctant to use tungsten on German things with guns smaller than 88L/71. That's why people are asking advice on beating the Tigers.

And btw. tungsten seems not to be very rare in CM-universe. Unfortunately I haven't the needed information to compare CM with history in this aspect.

If with "tungsten use fix" in the next patch CM becomes to "one hit - one kill environment", the Sherman76 will have some advantages over Panthers and Tigers:

- it's cheaper

- it's gyrostabilized

- it has much faster turret

- it has smaller silhouette

- it has much better armor penetration ability (with tungsten)

Ari

[Tiger]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>No offence, but it seems that you are referring generally to history and I'm referring directly to CM's game mechanics. If something historically wasn't a problem for the German tanks doesn't automatically mean that it's not a problem for the German tanks in the game. Even in CM.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand what you're trying to communicate here, sorry. You wrote above that "When this problem gets fixed...". Are you trying to say that though it was not a problem historically, it's ok to change this in the game to be a-historical?? In your orginal post it seemed you were inferring that something needed to be "fixed" and that this fix would make the german tiger/panthers dog-meat. I don't disagree that a tank with a faster turrent traverse gets to shoot first more often than slower traverse turrents, if both tanks see each other at the same time and if both tanks are not engaging/disengaging other targets at the time. I also accept that turrent traverse in CM is not 100% accurately modeled (this has been discussed thouroughly in another thread). I also agree that with tungsten rounds it's much more likely the sherman/allied tank will be able to deliver a knock-out blow to it's adversary. However, tungsten rounds were not that common, and CM models this as the allied tank commander trying to bracket its target first with normal rounds before wasting the uncommon tungsten rounds. At least that's what Big Time said in another thread. What alot of people desire is for tungsten rounds to be used first, which is ok because the first shot or three are more likely to miss and then no more tungsten shortly (then people will want more tungsten rounds added). It's probably done as it is now for historical accuracy.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It's just that right now the Sherman is too reluctant to use tungsten on German things with guns smaller than 88L/71. That's why people are asking advice on beating the Tigers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would a sherman use tungsten on anything smaller than a 88L/71 anyway when a normal ap/he round will probably do the same job and not waste the special ammo?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If with "tungsten use fix" in the next patch CM becomes to "one hit - one kill environment", the Sherman76 will have some advantages over Panthers and Tigers:

- it's cheaper

- it's gyrostabilized

- it has much faster turret

- it has smaller silhouette

- it has much better armor penetration ability (with tungsten)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with all of these points.

I was unaware that there was going to be a "use tungsten first fix" in the next patch. If it does become a one hit one kill environment this would be quite unhistorical and likely would not be received favorably by the CM faithful . I do get alot of richochets and non-kill hits on shermans when using the german tanks, I don't think I get automatic kills on every hit (I wish). Historically tiger and panther tanks did have a firepower advantage against the shermans. The 76mm armed sherman was also uncommon.

-oh well I've rambled too long,

take care.

-john

~ps I wasn't trying to belittle the need for tactics against the german tiger tank. I was referring to your post about tungsten rounds.

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

USA! USA!

It's official, no other air force EXISTED!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you ranting about?

Jeff

[GriffinCheng+]

From my little experiences, Tiger is no longer a uber tank I once thought. (spoiler below)...

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"Villars Bocage" -- Most of the time, the game has to be restarted due to shots from 17-pdr and sometime Staurt, especially if your Tiger is standing still and exposed. Most Shermans, including Firefly VCs, often get the first shot. I am not sure if it is due to the old problem with "running-crew-pirority" for I have not paid a visit after 1.03 patch.

"Magnificant Seven" -- Another tank-heavy scenario. I find that even a JadaPanther is vulnerable to 75mm frontal shots if the shot happen to shoot at any distance shorter than 500m. Your panzers is extermely endangered if it comes anywhere down from 400m. I think this draws the "thin red line" against Allied tanks.

The third one I would bring out is -- but I forgot the name -- a scenario between Polish armor and 2nd SS Panzer Division where 2nd SS was trying to escape thru the exit zone. It was another fun "tank shooter". I divided the Polish into 2 groups, one in the woods directly towards a hill and other moves towards the left flank of the hill along the road. When the Germans showed up on the hill, including Tigers, Panthers, various STuGs, and Marders, a sub-500m shooting began. I lost half of my tanks but the hill was littered with twisted, burning metals under German brand. My "calvary" marched victorously towards hill, sweeping German infantry as it goes.

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I am trying to point out that German panzers lose their edges when it comes down to distance shorter than 500m. It is even worse when the Allied has the numeric superority and the flank.

Good luck and happy hunting.

Griffin.

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"+" is just the beginning. Expect to see "GriffinCheng76", "GriffinCheng(105)" or "GriffinChengA3E8" more should Forum problems occur again

[Ari Maenpaa]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger:

I don't understand what you're trying to communicate here, sorry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, after reading my own message it occured to me that quite possibly it wasn't clear enough

I just intented to point out that currently tungsten ammunition in CM is exceedingly lethal.

And after reading your informative thread "Some tungsten info" I'm getting an impression that maybe t-rounds are too strong in CM.

I doubt that in reality US 76mm could kill KT frontally even with tungsten round, but I'm not sure. At least Jentz in his "Tiger Tanks" states that british 17-pdr could theoretically penetrate KT frontally, but there is no actual evidence that it never happened. And 17-pdr is clearly far superior to US 76mm.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiger:

I agree with all of these points.

I was unaware that there was going to be a "use tungsten first fix" in the next patch.

-john

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry for confusion. I DON'T KNOW if BTS is going to modify this for their next patch. And yes, maybe they shouldn't.

Anyway I tried to say that _IF_ BTS makes the tungsten use more liberal then even the basic 76mm will be more than enough to deal with any German tank.

In those circumstances people won't be asking how to beat the Tigers.

It seems that I made my point too indirect way.

Take care

Ari

[Guest Captitalistdoginchina]

How about the Wolverine? Would this be a suitable Tiger killer?

CDIC

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"Death solves all problems - no man no problem"

J.V.Stalin, 1918

[Ari Maenpaa]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

How about the Wolverine? Would this be a suitable Tiger killer?

CDIC

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wolverine has it all to kill any Tiger on sight. Just yesterday my opponent's Wolverine koed Tiger through front turret (that is the toughest point in Tiger's armor).

Ari