Head Mahone Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 The rumor has it that C.M. II will be fought on the Russian front. I think we all agree that this will be great. Nothin like a little house-to-house sniping in Stalingrad, or Tiger hunting in your T-34. But, it seems as though this should be done with perhaps an add-on pack. A whole new sequel should jump leaps and bounds over its predecessor. Not to say that the Russian front wouldn't, but just hear me out. Don't you think that a Pacific theater C.M. would have a much newer fill? Not to mention that the Pacific theater has been widely overlooked by gaming companies (except for flight sims). Don't get me wrong, I love Combat Mission. Anything that B.T.S. does will be excellent I'm sure. But I can just imagine some heated jungle fighting, flame throwing out Jap supply caves, and hell even an Iowa Jima beach landing! My Brother has gone as far as to say there should be Combat Mission Vietnam! I know that's a little much. But being chop lifted in, or supported by gunboats, choppers, and napalm bomb runs would kick ass as well. I hope I didn't open up a can of worms here. I just think that a Pacific Theater C.M. II would not only be a hit, but also just as ground breaking original as the first! -Head ------------------ "No man ever won a war by dieing for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." -General George S. Patton, Jr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 I think this has already been discussed, but why do you just want a Pacific theatre? Why not China and India as well? That at least would make the proposition more palatible. I'd rather see the Russian front and North Africa first though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seany B Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 This thread has come up a couple of times before. From a personal view, the Pacific theatre does not offer the appeal of historic combined arms combat. In fact I don't think I'd be too wide of the mark in saying that most Pacific/Far East battles were mainly infantry affairs. Don't get me wrong, I think there is a place for a Pacific/Far East CM, but rather this would be better as an add on pack rather than the broad spectrum of combat and terrain encompassed by the war Eastern europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 While the fighting in the Pacific was certainly ferocious, a large part seemed to be the methodical and systematic demolishing of Japanese strongpoints, bunker complexes, pillboxes, etc. I believe BTS stated that they don't feel that this necessarily makes for a fantastic gaming experience, thus they were postponing it at best. Besides, Steve and Charles are WWII enthusiasts and their interest seems to be partial to the Western Theaters. And as all enthusiasts, they are involving themselves with what excites them most. ------------------ Coming soon, a sig from PeterNZer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schrullenhaft Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 CM2 will be the Eastern Front. There will be a lot of new models and additional tweaks to the current CM engine. A lot of research, coding and 3D modelling will be needed to make it the game that everyone expects. In essence, you can consider it a stand-alone add-on module to the current CMBO since it will share a lot of the current engine code. While it would be nice to have a new engine for the next game, I believe that BTS can satisfy a good number of the expectations and desires for the Eastern Front with the current engine. This would allow them to put it out quicker rather than delaying the next game for the engine rewrite. CM II is going to be a complete re-write of the engine and hopefully a lot of changes will be put in to make the game even more realistic. This will be released some time after CM2 (as far as I can tell). Future versions of CM will be based on this engine (again, AFAIK) once it is finished. CM II refers more to the new engine rather than a particular theater. The new engine rewrite is going to take quite awhile (18 months minimum), which would probably be a bit too long for BTS to hold up sales for. According to past posts, Steve & Charles don't have a whole lot of interest/in-depth knowledge of the Pacific Theater. That's not to say that there will never be a Pacific Theater version of CM, but currently there are no real plans for that. It is my opinion that a majority of players on this forum would probably rather see an Eastern Front module/game before a Pacific theater one. [This message has been edited by Schrullenhaft (edited 12-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doodlebug Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 I'll admit to having a far less comprehensive knowledge of the Pacific theatre( or should I say Far East so as to include Burma, Malaya New Guinea etc) compared to the European theatre of operations but I think that the differences in operational styles between the Japanese and Allies would not make for an enjoyable gaming experience long term. The beauty of the CM system is the high replayability quotient. I sincerely believe that the qualitative differences between Japanese and Allied forces would make for a repetitive pattern of play. Just how many bunkers can you torch or demolish before the interest goes? Equally how many Banzai charges into overwhelming firepower do you want to lead? Don't get me wrong this system could easily support action in any number of conflicts, from Spanish Civil War to Korea and beyond. I just happen to think that a national philosophy that proposes "blood over technology" is hard to incorporate and play. Guts alone can overcome many disadvantages but longterm? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CATguy Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 In reading this thread on the Pacific theater I see that the general Consensus is that it was just an assault of endless pillboxes across the whole pacific. This in fact was not the norm and is the Hollywood version of the Pacific. There were large scale confrontations in the South Pacific all the Way over to SouthEast Asia on to the Philipines and Okinawa to name a few. The largest Tank Battle was on Saipan if memory serves me right. But on the other hand I would like to see the Russian Front done first and the Pacific done in future editions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 The best reason to release CM2 has a complete game instead of an add-on is because then BTS can make more money. And there is not a damn thing wrong with that. I would say that if CM2 got half the playing time CMBO has gotten from me, it would still be a steal at another $50. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Head Mahone: The rumor has it that C.M. II will be fought on the Russian front. I think we all agree that this will be great. Nothin like a little house-to-house sniping in Stalingrad, or Tiger hunting in your T-34 ... [snip]Don't get me wrong, I love Combat Mission. Anything that B.T.S. does will be excellent I'm sure. But I can just imagine some heated jungle fighting, flame throwing out Jap supply caves, and hell even an Iowa Jima beach landing! -Head <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> How about we just stop saying "Jap" on the board? Surely we can discuss the Second World War without using racial slurs. [This message has been edited by Terence (edited 12-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 I think Seany B is right. CM is designed to simulate combined arms combat, but the Pacific theatre was more of an infantry only game. Tanks were basically mobile pillbox blasters. I'd much rather play on the Russian front. Also, I find the word "Jap" to be a racial slur nearly bad as "gook" and think that we shouldn't use it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunsmithcat Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 I think the best way to do the Pacific theater for infantry would be using a man-tac system, like what Soldiers At War and Squad Leader PROMISED they would do. What a shame... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Los stated in another thread that they currently have somebody interview Russian vets - just to give you an indication of the length BTS is going to in order to provide a historically accurate game. Steve stated about a year back IIRC that they don't feel that they have the expertise to create an accurate simulation of the Far East, so they decided not to do it. I think that is a fair point. As for the appeal - I have read Astor's 'Operation Iceberg', which is basically a collection of very disjointed US and Japanese vets' oral accounts on the battle of Okinawa. I found the most interesting part to be that about the destroyers on Kamikaze station. The rest was fairly straightforward. Find a line of bunkers, reduce it, move on, repeat ad nauseam. I believe that the war on the Chinese mainland, in Burma, Guadalacanal and the early campaigns by the Japanese army have a bit more to offer, but not that much, really. Somebody stated in another thread on this topic that the city-fight in Manila was as bad as it was in Stalingrad - I find that hard to credit, seeing that AFAIK the total loss loss ratio on the Philipines was about 50:1 in favour of the US, (corrections of that figure welcome). But obviously YMMV applies here big-time. ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crepitis Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Schrullenhaft,hi, I'm getting a bit confused now.CM II and CM2,are different games?Actually,from reading your post I think I understand,But tell me,do you know when CM2(the Eastern Front)will be released,(aproximately)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basebal351 Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 I don't think the term "Jap" is that bad. It's just a shortening of "Japan" or "Japanese", which are accepted terms, so how can just shortening that be demeaning? Sorry, I know it's not that big of a deal, but I've got a real problem with all of this "politically correct" crap being shoved down my throat for the past few years. I need to rebel against the system a little bit, you know? Just to show I'm not a pushover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanE Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crepitis: Schrullenhaft,hi, I'm getting a bit confused now.CM II and CM2,are different games?Actually,from reading your post I think I understand,But tell me,do you know when CM2(the Eastern Front)will be released,(aproximately)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> CM2 will be the next game and will cover the Eastern Front and should be ready in about 18 months. CM II will be the next game engine by BTS and I believe BTS has stated that it will be 3-4 years down the road. ------------------ Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Basebal351: I don't think the term "Jap" is that bad. It's just a shortening of "Japan" or "Japanese", which are accepted terms, so how can just shortening that be demeaning? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I guess the problem is that it was used as a racist insult by US propaganda during the war. Your argument could also apply to 'Nigger' being a word derived from 'Negro' (or maybe nigr, Latin for 'black'). Negro is in turn derived from 'Negroid', the latter being a perfectly good word like Caucasian I believe (although someone from Anthropology could clear that up). I think that on the board words like 'Jap', or 'Kraut' are generally being used very sparingly (outside the Peng Thread™, of course) because of their use to support racist propaganda during the war. It is of course perfectly alright to call the English 'pommies' (if you are Australian). I don't think there are any hard and fast rules to it, but you see that some people may take offense, and I think that is not totally illegitimate to be queasy about it. BTW - Japan is a big misnomer, apparently coming from Marco Polo (who thought it was 'Zipangu', a mythical very rich land east of China). ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 oh the humanity of it all... I schmell lockup! ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 12-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samhain Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 Just wanted to add my voice to those who would appreciate it if people would avoid racial slurs and epithets, including those aimed at the Japanese or Germans. ------------------ Hope you got your things together, Hope you are quite prepared to die. --CCR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Basebal351: I don't think the term "Jap" is that bad. It's just a shortening of "Japan" or "Japanese", which are accepted terms, so how can just shortening that be demeaning? Sorry, I know it's not that big of a deal, but I've got a real problem with all of this "politically correct" crap being shoved down my throat for the past few years.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sir, Please permit me to point out that it is not the shortening, the problem lies in how the word itself is perceived, and that is a function of how it has been used in the past -- as a way to insult and humiliate the Japanese. If an entire group of people is insulted and pissed off by the word "Jap" and considers it a racial slur, than it doesn't matter at all if _you_ think it is a simple abbreviation. And while I take your point about political correctness, ( I went to a college where a large number of people wanted to spell woman with a "y" -- womyn-- so it wouldn't have "man" in it) it is the mark of a gentleman and an intelligent person that you not offend unless you intend to. So unless you really do want to offend all the Asians on the board (and some others as well) for no reason at all other than to make some abstract, unrelated point about how you don't like political correctness, I respectfully suggest (merely suggest, btw. not command, request or anything else) that you find some other way to refer to the Japanese. All the best, Terence [This message has been edited by Terence (edited 12-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AbnAirCav Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 As I understand it, the most likely order is:<ul>[*]CM2: Eastern Front[*]CM3: Med/North Africa[*]CM4: Early war years This actually mirrors my wishes but I would love to see CM5: Pacific/CBI! (edited because I guess I was too lazy or arrogant to use spell check ...) [This message has been edited by AbnAirCav (edited 12-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AbnAirCav: As I understand it, the most likely order is:<ul><LI>CM2: Eastern Front<LI>CM3: Med/North Africa<LI>CM4: Early war years [This message has been edited by AbnAirCav (edited 12-11-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Out of curiosity, what do you suppose would be the most interesting elements of the CM4 early war years game? Terence (edited to add a question mark to the question.) [This message has been edited by Terence (edited 12-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 Croda said: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>While the fighting in the Pacific was certainly ferocious, a large part seemed to be the methodical and systematic demolishing of Japanese strongpoints, bunker complexes, pillboxes, etc. I believe BTS stated that they don't feel that this necessarily makes for a fantastic gaming experience, thus they were postponing it at best. Besides, Steve and Charles are WWII enthusiasts and their interest seems to be partial to the Western Theaters. And as all enthusiasts, they are involving themselves with what excites them most.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree. I think anything done in the Pacific would be boring. Every scenario will be the Allies flaming some Jap bunker and infantry to infantry fighting from tree to tree. Oh joy. The same goes for North Africa. B-O-R-I-N-G. Tank battles from 2000m out with nothing to hide behind but the occasional sand dune. Yeah, that sure does sound exciting... ------------------ Youth is wasted on the young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudeLover Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 Early war includes different tactical issues. There's German tanks with often inferior armor and guns facing big tough fellas like the French Char B1 and S-35 and the British Matilda II, the Panther of its day. Heck, even the Polish 7TP was a match for the Germans... This was also an era when many AFVs had only machine guns...the German Pz I and PZ IIs will not be leveling houses from halfway across the board. On the other hand, infantry didn't have so many options vs. tanks...the game should feel quite different in many ways. Maybe that seems boring after your Stalin II vs. King Tiger duels in CM2 and the 88s reaching across the desert to touch British Crusaders, but I still think infantry is the heart of CM... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Terence: How about we just stop saying "Jap" on the board? Surely we can discuss the Second World War without using racial slurs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> OH shut the hell up! What make the word "Nazi" from being a racial slur? Or Pollocks, or Spics, or Newfies (Canadian reference there), Sand Jockeys, Slant Eyes, or even Round Eyes for that matter. And while we're at it, let's add Cannuck too for good measure. We're all adults here and I think we handle the slang of the day. Besides, I think using the slang of the day is just fine. It's like Johhny Reb or Billy Yank. Big freakin' do! Why don't you all grow up and have one of those so called dark laggers and a nice big can of shut up the hell up. [This message has been edited by Maximus (edited 12-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucero1148 Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 A Pacific version would be great. I'm sure it would open up a new market for BTS. There is probably an untapped market of Japanese, Korean and Chinese wargamers who would love to try their hand at re-fighting WWII Pac battles. Best Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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