German on-map mortars

[PEB14]

I've always found that 81mm German mortars are a pain to use so I made a quick test (which should work for any of the three other WW2 games as the 81 mm platoon structure is similar).

The unit structure of the infantry battalion's mortars is the following:

   Company HQ (radio)

    - Platoon HQ (radio)

    -- Section HQ (no radio)

    --- Mortar squad (no radio)

(There are two sections per platoon and two mortar squads per section, but it doesn't matter for the test).

I tried to call for the mortars indirect fire using either any of the HQs above or a FO attached to the company.

It appears that there is only one condition to be able to do so: the platoon HQ must be placed next to the mortar squads.

Section HQ have no importance in the process, they can be at home drinking a fresh beer, which means mortars' C2 status has no influence on its hability to fire.

 

It leads to a weird situation: as long as the platoon HQ is next to the mortar squads, you can have the radioless Sections HQ out of view of the mortars, calling indirect fire !!!

So the fact that the Section HQ has no radio forbids it to call for indirect fire if the platoon HQ is too far from the mortars, but the Section HQ can be on Mars or Venus and still call for its own mortars's indirect fire through some mysterious channel?! Weird, weird, weird…

[Warts 'n' all]

3 hours ago, PEB14 said:

the Section HQ can be on Mars or Venus and still call for its own mortars's 

Perhaps they use "Wings". One for older fortumites.

[chuckdyke]

8 hours ago, PEB14 said:

Mortar squad (no radio)

He must be in C2 with his Platoon HQ (Radio). The scenario in which I checked was Battle of Chaumont 2nd round FB. If he is not in C2 with his HQ no HQ in the game can use the mortar for indirect. HQ's without a radio can call in for support as long as the mortar is in C2 with his HQ who must have a radio. If the HQ becomes KIA you will lose the mortar for indirect fire. Possibly his Company HQ can do it but I didn't check this. 

[PEB14]

4 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

He must be in C2 with his Platoon HQ (Radio).

Not sure what you mean by "in C2."

In my test, C2 doesn't matter. If the Platoon HQ (Radio) is not close enough from the mortars (e.g., a couple of tiles), NO indirect fire allowed, even if in C2.

In my understanding, for a mortar to be in C2 he must see or hear its Section HQ, not Platoon HQ.

According to my tests, It's only the presence of the platoon HQ radio in the immediate vicinity of the mortars which allows to use them for indirect fire, not the C2 status of the mortars.

[chuckdyke]

5 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

Not sure what you mean by "in C2."

In C2 the Green Radio Buttons on the left of the Administration panel Should be all Green. The Unit of my scenario was in Chaumont 2nd round. The Mortar is embedded with the platoon and he must be in C2 with his Platoon HQ because the HQ has the radio required for other units outside the formation to call the mortar for indirect fire. Once the Mortar is out of range of his HQ it is only capable of direct fires. It works exactly the same as the US 60mm embedded mortars. 

[chuckdyke]

I still can't post screen-shots for longer than 24 hours. 

[PEB14]

I get your point about being in C2 with the platoon HQ and not the section HQ. But I confirm that this is not enough, though.

Here, the mortar is in C2 with its Plat HQ not his Sect HQ based on the green lights:

 

But the Plat HQ  is too far away and the FO cannot call for indirect fire:

 

I tried with the Co HQ and it works, so it seems that you only need a radio close to the mortars to call for indirect fire, which is basically what is written in the manual:

[chuckdyke]

The HQ of the mortars is too far away. The radio of the HQ is not part of the C2. Other units need it for fire support. 

[PEB14]

6 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

The HQ of the mortars is too far away. The radio of the HQ is not part of the C2. Other units need it for fire support. 

Yes that's my point. C2 is not enough (apparently not even necessary), radio shall be close enough.

I've not tested whether the radio must belong to the command chain or if any radio can do the job.

[chuckdyke]

34 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

I've not tested whether the radio must belong to the command chain or if any radio can do the job.

More things come into play when the C2 is not maintained I think with the TacAI. So if the Mortar is in C2 with his Platoon HQ who has the radio it should work fine. Soviet WW2 is different again. The leader Mortar Battery HQ no radio can call for fires only if his sub-unit Platoon HQ has a radio who is in charge of three 81 mm mortars and the mortars must be in C2 with the Platoon HQ but not with the Mortar Battery HQ. The Mortar Battery HQ can be located anywhere on a map and call in for fires even when his sub-units are completely out of C2. I play it save and keep the radio buttons on green as much as possible. The ability to call in for fires doesn't mean it is going to be effective and efficient. On map my first option is looking at direct fire and indirect if direct fire is not a realistic option. Mortars in defilade can be very secure. 

[chuckdyke]

I just tested it I swapped the Platoon HQ for his Company HQ and the Platoon HQ who is in C2 (By Radio) with his Company HQ can't call for indirect fire. The Company HQ with Radio is sharing the same square with the mortar. The Platoon HQ is the only unit which can enable other units to use his embedded mortar for fire support. I wonder or the same applies with US units. 

[PEB14]

19 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

I just tested it I swapped the Platoon HQ for his Company HQ and the Platoon HQ who is in C2 (By Radio) with his Company HQ can't call for indirect fire. The Company HQ with Radio is sharing the same square with the mortar. The Platoon HQ is the only unit which can enable other units to use his embedded mortar for fire support. I wonder or the same applies with US units. 

That's getting very weird because in my case it works. See below:

The HQ amidst the mortars is the Co HQ. As you can see there is no C2 between the Plt HQ and the Co HQ but the Plt HQ can call the mortars for indirect fire (so can the radioless Section HQ and the FO).

I've no idea why, but in the example above the mortars are in C2 with their Plt HQ: they are out view and voice and have no radio! But the light is red with the Co whereas thr Co HQ is 10 meters from them.

That's why I don't like on-map German mortars. Always a pain to get them work properly, ya never know why i works (and why it doesn't either…). The US have radios everywhere so it's much easier.

[Erwin]

21 hours ago, PEB14 said:

Section HQ have no importance in the process, they can be at home drinking a fresh beer, which means mortars' C2 status has no influence on its hability to fire.

Yup.  It is puzzling but I have always considered the C2 system a bit wanky.  Maybe it works in a "lab" setting.  But, in the game with multiple Co structures and Bn HQ's, one can get strange results.  But thanks for confirming that the Section HQ can be used for spotting/recon or as a medic or to crew a HT if one or both the crew are KO'd.

[Bulletpoint]

Quote

I tried to reproduce this but couldn't. Maybe it's something about the particular scenario you're playing?

 

In my game (new custom scenario, CMFB, not the newest patch but the one before, testing Grenadier battalion), contact from Company to mortars only works if there's a clear C2 path from company to mortar.

Either by:

• Company commander in C2 with Platoon commander (radio)
• Platoon commander in C2 with Section leader (voice)
• Section leader in C2 with mortar teams (voice).

Or:

• Company commander is placed next to the mortar (and section HQ and Platoon HQ are dead or far away. They cannot call for fire even though they are in contact with company, and he is in direct contact with mortars)

 

Replacing Section leader with Platoon leader also results in no contact with mortars, even though Command has a radio link to Platoon. But now Platoon leader can by himself order the mortars, because he's next to them.

 

So everything seems to work as expected on my end.

 

I noticed that in your screenshot, the platoon commander has no radio, even though you stated in your first post that he should have one. Maybe you're playing a Downfall scenario and the Germans are poorly equipped at that time? And then somebody made some kind of C2 mistake in the code. Because the results you're getting seem to make no sense. The situation in the last screenshot should not be able to happen.

Ok, scratch all that, because it seems all this only works inside the editor as long as you are "deploying" the forces in the preview. The moment you save the test scenario and play it like a regular battle, things start to get weird.

 

1: Just like you said, the only important thing is that Platoon leader is close to the mortars. I ran the 2. section leader away from everybody, and even without C2, he is still able to call for support. But not from his own mortars, but from 3. section! But only as long as Platoon leader is close to those mortars.

So basically, as long as you place the mortar platoon leader among all the mortars of all sections, any section leader can call in fire from any point of the map, even without radio or C2. Definitely seems like a bug. The attached FO cannot call in anything if out of C2.

2: In WW2, moving infantry units lose radio contact while moving. This is by design. But they are still able to call for artillery while moving and while out of C2. I tried this out with the FO. This also seems to be a bug. I could be wrong, but I doubt even modern infantry can call for support while running through terrain.

Edited June 9 by Bulletpoint

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

Just like you said, the only important thing is that Platoon leader is close to the mortars.

Yes I concur. I recall one game in RT the man HQ can call in off map but not the mortar 3 action squares away. Indeed, it all depends or the on-map battery or single tube is in contact with his immediate HQ with a radio. Doctrine I use them for direct fire in defilade position at a tentative contact. But it is nice if you have the FDC system as an option. But with the timefactor to call in for fires opportunity targets are not an option. 

[PEB14]

18 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Ok, scratch all that, because it seems all this only works inside the editor as long as you are "deploying" the forces in the preview. The moment you save the test scenario and play it like a regular battle, things start to get weird.

Hi @Bulletpoint,

Just FYI I did the tests in game mode using a specially edited map, not in the preview mode of the scenario editor.

 

18 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

So basically, as long as you place the mortar platoon leader among all the mortars of all sections, any section leader can call in fire from any point of the map, even without radio or C2. Definitely seems like a bug. The attached FO cannot call in anything if out of C2.

If who is out of C2? The FO or the mortar?

 

[Bulletpoint]

3 hours ago, PEB14 said:

Just FYI I did the tests in game mode using a specially edited map, not in the preview mode of the scenario editor.

Yes, that is what I realised after writing the first reply. Everything looks like it works perfectly as long as you are inside the editor, but the moment you actually play the scenario, the problems appear as you described.

3 hours ago, PEB14 said:

If who is out of C2? The FO or the mortar?

• The FO cannot call in the mortars as long as he is out of C2. This works as excpected.
• But the mortar section leader can call in the mortars even when he is out of C2 and far from the mortars. This does not work as expected.
• All commanders can call in mortars over radio while moving, this also doesn't work as expected. But it's unrelated to the problem you reported.

I recommend that you report this as a bug. I don't think any beta tester will realise that this thread is about a bug, since the word "bug" does not appear in the title, so they will probably not see it.

Edited June 10 by Bulletpoint

[Erwin]

Am sure I reported this years ago.  But, not sure if BF has time to fix everything.

Edited June 10 by Erwin