Run!

[semmes]

I had some Gr walking towards a village, then a MRL barrage fell among the houses... and the Gr started running to the rockets; as they run towards the bullets.
I do understand that this is the Beta version and that, as soon as the testers see that, they will correct it. That's why now we have:
Fire! (AI)            = Run!
instead of
Fire! (AI/no AI)  = Take cover!

Hopefully, in something like 20 years, they will star selling the actual game...

[Bulletpoint]

The problem with the walking order (move) is that if they take fire, they will automatically convert the walk order into a run order towards the same destination.

This is only really useful in those cases where you are using scouts to bait and draw fire while crossing a street for example.

[PEB14]

35 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

This is only really useful in those cases where you are using scouts to for example.

Don't you use the "hunt" order to bait and draw fire while crossing a street ? If I get you correctly, you have two choices:

- walking unit will start to run if fired upon, so it may be interesting for short exposed areas (like a street crossing)

- hunting units hit the ground if fired upon, so better for moving over longer distances in fields, forests, etc.

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, PEB14 said:

Don't you use the "hunt" order to bait and draw fire while crossing a street ? If I get you correctly, you have two choices:

- walking unit will start to run if fired upon, so it may be interesting for short exposed areas (like a street crossing)

- hunting units hit the ground if fired upon, so better for moving over longer distances in fields, forests, etc.

I don't use "hunt" while crossing a road, because then the guys will drop down in the middle of the road where there is no cover. So I might use "move" in order to move slowly across a street - it gives more time for enemies to spot them. If you just run scouts across a street, there's a risk the enemy MG won't even have time to spot them, and then I think the road is clear ... the MG will then of course spot my full squad moving across later.

Same technique can also be used to move through a forest clearing etc.

But when moving through dense terrain where there is cover, or a completely open field, it's better to use 'hunt'.

[callada]

On 6/6/2023 at 8:23 AM, PEB14 said:

Don't you use the "hunt" order to bait and draw fire while crossing a street ? If I get you correctly, you have two choices:

- walking unit will start to run if fired upon, so it may be interesting for short exposed areas (like a street crossing)

- hunting units hit the ground if fired upon, so better for moving over longer distances in fields, forests, etc.

"Hunt" is tiring and the units move slowly.  So "Quick" and "Move" are the only real distance options, in my humble experience.

[PEB14]

19 minutes ago, callada said:

"Hunt" is tiring and the units move slowly.  So "Quick" and "Move" are the only real distance options, in my humble experience.

For distance, yes they are. For scouting, move and hunt are the options.

[callada]

23 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

For distance, yes they are. For scouting, move and hunt are the options.

You're making me wonder -- are faster-moving units more or less likely to be spotted, given the same movement path?  It seems like they'd be less likely to be seen given the way the spotting check runs on an interval, but maybe they're more noticeable on each dice roll.  I could see the answer being "it depends".

[Bulletpoint]

39 minutes ago, callada said:

You're making me wonder -- are faster-moving units more or less likely to be spotted, given the same movement path?  It seems like they'd be less likely to be seen given the way the spotting check runs on an interval, but maybe they're more noticeable on each dice roll.  I could see the answer being "it depends".

My impression is that faster moving units are less likely to get spotted, because of fewer spotting checks done against them.

I haven't seen it properly tested, but from experience, I think the only thing that matters is if they are moving or not, and how much time they spend in LOS.

Infantry using "move" are very easy to spot even at long distance.

[Howler]

FWIW, my scouting is usually quick + pause 15 (2 spotting checks) or 10s (1 spotting check) + quick... repeat sequence. I believe the engine drops the cycle to 5s when close the an enemy. So, a 10s pause could yield a couple spotting cycles.

Danger areas are usually traversed using fast or quick depending on distance. If a street needs to be crossed in an urban setting - FAST! For the same reason @Bulletpoint disclosed. The last thing you want is the stop in the street.

[chuckdyke]

You need to stay in visual contact with the scouts. Imo role of snipers and or other observers. The scout needs to move in such a fashion to enhance his survivability. To gather intel is the responsibility of the squad the scout belongs to or even his platoon. 

[Brille]

I really would like to have an alternative move command like in the older games which was "move to contact". This way you can decide how troops under fire would react: either speed up the pace to get to the destination (probably cover) faster or abort all movement and hit the ground/fight the enemy where they stand. 

This would not tire squads out on a distance, while giving the player more options. The hunt command could stand as it is with a bit tweaking of course. 

Something like a higher situational awareness/shorter reaction time in comparison to the normal move command, since it is more of a "sweep the area" command.

So enemy contacts are expected close by, while the move commands would be mainly for getting from A to B with different sets of behavior to enemy fire. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Brille

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Brille said:

I really would like to have an alternative move command like in the older games which was "move to contact". This way you can decide how troops under fire would react: either speed up the pace to get to the destination (probably cover) faster or abort all movement and hit the ground/fight the enemy where they stand. 

This would not tire squads out on a distance, while giving the player more options. The hunt command could stand as it is with a bit tweaking of course. 

Something like a higher situational awareness/shorter reaction time in comparison to the normal move command, since it is more of a "sweep the area" command.

So enemy contacts are expected close by, while the move commands would be mainly for getting from A to B with different sets of behavior to enemy fire. 

You can stack waypoints and in this way blend the move orders. There are plenty of ways to experiment to your hearts content.

[Brille]

23 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

You can stack waypoints and in this way blend the move orders. There are plenty of ways to experiment to your hearts content.

Well I learned my ways to work around it but it is still a workaround.

And you would have to micromanage the whole thing instead of plotting one single move order. 

I don't shy away from micromanagement. I probably do it more often than I should and this results in more time taken to process a turn on my part. 

But I know some folks don't like to micromanage at least not for such simple tasks. 

If you just want to, for example,  move a platoon in a straight line over some distance but want them to still be defensive about possible enemy encounters, a "move to contact" would be great. You could say that I should have properly scouted the area ahead with some 2 men teams. 

But that is not always possible and especially in forests you can have stragglers that you were totally unaware of or enemy elements that moved in after your scouts. 

This way  the platoon would at least stop and engage the threat at the spot rather than start running like maniacs through the forest after getting under fire. 

I know the hunt command is doing this right now (in terms of unit behavior) but you can only do it for what? 300m until they start tiring?  (don't know the actual value)

Not really complaining though since I got along with it till now but on big maps with lots of none mechanized forces it could maybe be a nice addition. 

But I'm not naive enough to believe that BFC will include this in the existing games, so no worries.

But maybe when a newer engine comes along... 

 

[chuckdyke]

24 minutes ago, Brille said:

I know the hunt command is doing this right now (in terms of unit behavior) but you can only do it for what? 300m until they start tiring?  (don't know the actual value)

When you walk on the end of the waypoint with a short pause you can drag the 'Hunt Waypoint. Right on top this way you don't tire for a long time. Drag the Hunt on the timed pause waypoint. From the two merged waypoints plot your next move. Tired units are not affected in any other way. Tired units just can't go fast. You need to be fatigued or exhausted till you lose the ability to hunt or go quick. You never lose the ability to walk or go slow, even when exhausted. I do this often with quick and fast so that the moves will be canceled upon full contact. Works best with split units.

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by chuckdyke

[PEB14]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

When you walk on the end of the waypoint with a short pause you can drag the 'Hunt Waypoint. Right on top this way you don't tire for a long time. Drag the Hunt on the timed pause waypoint. From the two merged waypoints plot your next move.

I absolutely don't understand the rationale. You move in one direction (yellow arrow) then hunt in the opposite direction (red arrow) from an intermediate waypoint??? What is the purpose?

[chuckdyke]

12 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

What is the purpose?

Say you need to hunt but the terrain is too open you need to go fast hunt by itself is too slow. You wish to cancel moves upon full contact but only hunt does that. You can drag a hunt way point on top of the fast waypoint the move after that is fast again. You can do the same with walk through a forest drag a hunt way point on top of any other waypoint. This way you can blend different modes. 

[chuckdyke]

22 minutes ago, PEB14 said:

(red arrow)

Red arrow is the direction you drag your hunt waypoint. From that waypoint you plot your next waypoint. The purpose is to cancel the moves upon full contact all the other moves don't do that.

 

[MOS:96B2P]

3 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Say you need to hunt but the terrain is too open you need to go fast hunt by itself is too slow. You wish to cancel moves upon full contact but only hunt does that. You can drag a hunt way point on top of the fast waypoint the move after that is fast again. You can do the same with walk through a forest drag a hunt way point on top of any other waypoint. This way you can blend different modes. 

Hmm, kind of interesting. I've never tried this before.  May play around with this.

[Bulletpoint]

I don't think stacking two waypoints will blend the movement modes.

What will likely happen is that you move QUICK to some location, then the unit gets a HUNT order, but it's to the same location they already are, which means it's immediately seen as achieved, and the unit then moves on to next order, which is again an order to move using QUICK. The result will be the same as simply chaining two QUICK moves.

Maybe with a chance that the unit will spot an enemy in the very brief moment where it considers its HUNT order, in which case all further movement orders will be discarded.

[PEB14]

40 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

I don't think stacking two waypoints will blend the movement modes.

What will likely happen is that you move QUICK to some location, then the unit gets a HUNT order, but it's to the same location they already are, which means it's immediately seen as achieved, and the unit then moves on to next order, which is again an order to move using QUICK. The result will be the same as simply chaining two QUICK moves.

Maybe with a chance that the unit will spot an enemy in the very brief moment where it considers its HUNT order, in which case all further movement orders will be discarded.

Well, I agree with that... That's why I didn't understand @chuckdyke's trick...

I'll give it a try.

[chuckdyke]

7 hours ago, PEB14 said:

I'll give it a try.

I tried two methods a move followed by hunt of one or two squares. Or drag on top of each other. Then split and non splitted squads. So the best method is for me Move towards concealment highlight the waypoint and give a timed pause then a hunt move which I drag on top of the previous waypoint. Then plot my next way point. Hunt has the function to cancel the other moves. It works best with small fire teams not with a merged squad. Happy gaming.

[Brille]

On 6/13/2023 at 11:53 PM, chuckdyke said:

I tried two methods a move followed by hunt of one or two squares. Or drag on top of each other. Then split and non splitted squads. So the best method is for me Move towards concealment highlight the waypoint and give a timed pause then a hunt move which I drag on top of the previous waypoint. Then plot my next way point. Hunt has the function to cancel the other moves. It works best with small fire teams not with a merged squad. Happy gaming.

I guess I understand what you mean and though it is an interesting method it is not quite what I'm looking for. This method includes more micromanagement than it should while I meant to reduce it. 

 

And your method is only valiable If the unit spots something/someone in their pause-hunt time if I understood it right. So if a unit reveals itself after that your squad will be behave like the movement order obliged them to regardless if under fire. 

Don't want to undermine it, just for clarification. We all work with workarounds here.

 

I guess it works best with teams because they are faster to reach a certain way point. Otherwise a way point is only triggered when the last soldier has finally reached it, which can take more time with a full born squad especially when they oddly "search" for a place in their formation. 

 

I've used the "stacking" of movement orders too but mainly for switching suppressive fire, while staying in the same square. 

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, Brille said:

I guess I understand what you mean and though it is an interesting method it is not quite what I'm looking for.

I played CM since Beyond Overlord and found this works the best. What I like is something like we have with graphic software. In which you can save actions. So if we plot from A to B we should be able to have a number of waypoints per single click. I work like this Double Click HQ and just plot roughly a number and set pause. Now just drag the waypoints in the spot required press P to un-pause. I like my key-board short cuts and like huge scenarios. Play huge as per manual was for me a nightmare but now my workflow is enjoyable.