How late did the US still have M48A3s or earlier (90mm gun tanks) for use in Europe?

[Centurian52]

Same question goes for 84mm gun armed Centurions (Mk 3-Mk 5). Basically I want to know how far back we need to go to see NATO 1st gen MBTs with their 1st gen guns face off against Soviet T-55s. While I am among the advocates for eventually getting around to the late 80s, I'm equally curious about how some of the earliest NATO equipment would perform against the Soviets. In particular, I understand that part of what prompted the development of the 105mm gun was alarm over the armor properties of a T-54/55 captured during the 1956 Hungarian revolution (supposedly driven onto the British embassy grounds by the revolutionaries), and I'm very curious about to what degree that alarm was justified (would 90mm or 84mm armed NATO tanks have struggled to defeat T-55s). I'm sure this or that penetration table says yes, or maybe no, but I will be satisfied by nothing less than getting to actually simulate it under realistic conditions using whatever data BFC gets about these vehicles in their back alley briefcase deals (or however they get their data).

[Dynaman216]

The Fistful of Tows miniatures rules lists the M48A3 as being in service till the mid/late seventies.  I do not see it listing where they are though, I'm guessing it was mostly in National Guard units stateside.  As for actual ability to penetrate T55 tanks there almost has to be data from the middle eastern wars to go on.

[Amedeo]

Well, according to Wikipedia: "The M48A3 was withdrawn from Europe by October 1961, being replaced by the M60 tank. As US armored and cavalry units rotated out of combat deployments to South Vietnam most of their M48A3s were either directly transferred to the South Vietnamese Army or to Thailand. FORSCOM withdrew the M48A3 from combat service with both the US Army and US Marine Corps in 1973, replacing them with the M60A1. Some M48A3s continued in service with National Guard units until 1979."
So, if this information is correct, there were no USAREUR units equipped with M48s during CMCW timeframe. Some 90mm gun armed M48A3 might be considered for the upcoming BAOR module (since it extends the game's timeframe back to 1976) in the same way as NG M48A5 tanks are included in the current base game.

For what concerns the ability of the 90mm gun to frontally penetrate the T-55 tank, a member of the TankNet forum that had access to primary sources describing the results of the live firing tests carried on by the Yugoslav Army, posted there data that are relevant to the issue. 
Yu guns vs armor tests of 1960s... - Page 2 - Armor Scientific Forum - tanknet.org

It's actually M47 vs T-54 but I presume that the figures given are comparable to the  M48 vs T-55 matchup.
Here's the relevant quote from the above thread:

90mm M36 gun from M47 tank firing AP, HVAP and HEAT
T-33 AP fails to penetrate glacis even @ 100m
M304 subcalibre fails to penetrate glacis even @ 100m
M431 HEAT penetrates glacis, but fails to fuse if side angle is more then 20deg.

T33AP penetrates front turret @ 350m
M304 subcalibre penetrates front turret @ 750m
M431 HEAT penetrates front turret

T33AP penetrates frontal part of the side of the turret @ 850m
M304 subcalibre penetrates frontal part of the side turret at any practical range
M431 HEAT penetrates frontal part of the side turret

All round penetrate rear part of the side turret at any practical range.

Conclusion:
Amount of M431 HEAT rounds in ammo load should be increased, and load of T33 AP be reduced.
Frontal engagement of the new foreing tanks is to be done only with M431 HEAT round.
Engagement from ambush position can be done with M304 subcalibre and M431 HEAT at any range and T33 AP at ranges less then 1000m.
Problem of M431 round failing to fuse at angles more then 60deg is to be fixed with production of domestic HEAT.
That round should be also capable of being fired from M3A1 gun mounted on SO-90 M-36. without sagnificent modifications to the gun or vehicle.

 

[Bobjack1240]

Some Soviet units were still using T-34s in Czechoslovakia in 1968. The Soviets were still exporting them to Vietnam as late as the 1980s (HANDBOOK OF MAJOR FOREIGN WEAPONS SYSTEMS EXPORTED TO THE THIRD WORLD (VOL II) GROUND FORCES EQUIPMENT, CIA Reading Room).

HANDBOOK OF MAJOR FOREIGN WEAPONS SYSTEMS EXPORTED TO THE THIRD WORLD (VOL II) GROUND FORCES EQUIPMENT

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Bobjack1240

[Centurian52]

Ok, I got some information on 84mm gun armed Centurions. It looks like our best bet is the Canadian army. They purchased 274 Mk 3 (84mm gun) Centurions from 1952-1953. In 1971 supposedly they had 322 Centurions, of which 81 had 105mm guns (meaning the other 241 had 84mms), and they started replacing their Centurions with Leopard 1s in 1977. Only one regiment of four would be fully equipped with Mk 11 (105mm gun) Centurions before they were fully replaced in 1979. So it sounds like the majority of the Centurions we'll be getting with the Canadian army in the early years will be 84mm. Though it sounds like the regiment with the Mk 11s was the one stationed in Germany, so any 84mm Centurions will have to come as reinforcements.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/centurion#:~:text=The Centurion went on to,and operated them until 1979.

[MikeyD]

Long ago I had this odd conversation with a neighbor of friends I was visiting in Arizona. The guy claimed to be either former Vietnam war Special Forces or some sort of a 'spook'. He talked about US M48s and North Vietnamese tanks engaging in clandestine tank battles along the DMZ. Stuff you'd never read in history books. Lots of details that it would be odd for someone to just fabricate. The takeaway was that these engagements had been hushed-up because the US didn't come off quite as 'victorious' as they would prefer to present themselves. I can't vouch for any of this, its just a weird story I was once told.

Edited April 5, 2023 by MikeyD

[DesertFox]

As for M48, german army had them until ca. 1993. They were (M48A2GA2 = 105mm gun) used in the territorial brigades (Heimatschutzbrigaden).

[Artkin]

On 4/3/2023 at 8:33 PM, Bobjack1240 said:

Some Soviet units were still using T-34s in Czechoslovakia in 1968. The Soviets were still exporting them to Vietnam as late as the 1980s (HANDBOOK OF MAJOR FOREIGN WEAPONS SYSTEMS EXPORTED TO THE THIRD WORLD (VOL II) GROUND FORCES EQUIPMENT, CIA Reading Room).

HANDBOOK OF MAJOR FOREIGN WEAPONS SYSTEMS EXPORTED TO THE THIRD WORLD (VOL II) GROUND FORCES EQUIPMENT

 

 

in 1989 some soviet units were still using t-34s and su-100s. I forget who. Read it last night

[sawomi]

Quote

 

...In der Nationalen Volksarmee der DDR wurden 1964 die T-34/76 ausgemustert; die letzten 35 Panzer T-34/85 mit der 85-mm-Kanone blieben dort bis 1988 in der Reserve oder wurden auf Schießplätzen als Hartziele verwendet. ...

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34

 

translation: 

In the National People's Army of the GDR, the T-34/76 were retired in 1964; the last 35 T-34/85 tanks with the 85-mm gun remained there in reserve until 1988 or were used as hard targets on firing ranges.