Flavour objects

[Vacillator]

1 minute ago, Artkin said:

half life 1

Now that is totally acceptable, great game.

[JM Stuff]

55 minutes ago, Vacillator said:

is similar to sangria and typically made up of 1 part of table red wine and 1 part soda, usually lemonade.  And I did not hear  that from Wikipedia .

But you don't know also the "calimucho" or callimucho certain said Kalimucho sorry and Kalimotxo also ,! This is in the North of Spain. And I did not hear  that from Wikipedia .

Also very fresh and good taste, and easy to do yourself, depend only what you are mixed with, I could invite you on Wiki, but? ....you will do it automatically 

Edit and we are staying in the good thread with this flavour savour... 

Edited February 21, 2023 by JM Stuff

[Vacillator]

7 minutes ago, JM Stuff said:

flavour savour

Further evidence of the correct spelling, if we needed it .

[RockinHarry]

10 hours ago, JM Stuff said:

Ohhh This is an interresting thing, I have to test it myself.

Never have this idea to created a map to test, I take always the first map and rename it for differents use.

I hope your drink is a Paulaner or Spaten?

Hehe... I rarely drink, but if... it´s usually much harder, better tasting things.

[Brille]

16 hours ago, Erwin said:

"Eye candy".  Can't recall if actual wreck eye candy blocks LOS like a "real" tank.  (IIRC, tanks do not block friendly LOS only enemy LOS.)

As far as I know a tank (either if a wreck or still intact) has no influence on LOS or LOF at least till it is not burning. 

Incoming Small arms fire however will be deflected/absorbed. So you can place infantry behind a tank and they are relatively safe but they can certainly be pinned or panicked. 

Bigger calibers go through a wrecked tank I believe, at least if another vehicle/tank is targeted behind it. Would have to test this one to be 100% sure. 

But I had this instance in one battle where a Panther wreck stood before a Stummel halftrack and the shot of a 57mm gun went right through it without any hit detection or decals on the Panther. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Brille

[Battlefront.com]

7 hours ago, Brille said:

As far as I know a tank (either if a wreck or still intact) has no influence on LOS or LOF at least till it is not burning. 

Incoming Small arms fire however will be deflected/absorbed. So you can place infantry behind a tank and they are relatively safe but they can certainly be pinned or panicked. 

Bigger calibers go through a wrecked tank I believe, at least if another vehicle/tank is targeted behind it. Would have to test this one to be 100% sure. 

But I had this instance in one battle where a Panther wreck stood before a Stummel halftrack and the shot of a 57mm gun went right through it without any hit detection or decals on the Panther. 

This is correct.  Here are some more details...

From a game mechanics standpoint there is a "LOS Map" that is computed during the loading of the map.  That LOS Map is put into memory and is referenced throughout the game.  This is the only way the game can run because on-the-fly calculations for LOS that CM needs to function is simply beyond any processor's ability to handle.  There is also a map for Best Path for exactly the same reason.  Neither special map is updated (much) during the course of the game because doing that requires rebuilding these special maps, which is extremely "expensive" to do in terms of computing resources and time.  The destruction of things like walls and buildings do require recalculations, but generally limited in nature and are inherently predictable (i.e. a building is always in the same spot, so assumptions can be made that the specific spot might change over time).

Vehicles are chaotic.  They change locations ALL THE TIME.  Unlike terrain features, their positions are not limited to a predetermined angle relative to the map grid.  They can also be in several Action Spots at once and to different degrees.  This is inherently incompatible with the LOS Map engineering, and since that engineering is the only reason the game can run, it can't be accommodated.

Flavor Objects are similar.  Their position within an Action Spot, size, and shape are all chaotic from a coding standpoint.  There's no practical way to integrate them into the LOS system, therefore they are ignored from an LOS standpoint.

LOF (Line of Fire), on the other hand, is always calculated on-the-fly.  In this case Flavor Objects are predictable enough to incorporate into LOF calculations.  Each Flavor Object is given a rough size (I don't remember how many variants, but it is something like None, Small, Medium, and Large) so that a couple of buckets doesn't block LOF while a destroyed car has pretty good blockage.  The Flavor Object can also have very simplistic protection ratings, again quite rough but still enough that a couple of barrels doesn't behave the same as a pile of bricks.

Vehicles could be incorporated into LOF calculations very easily.  In fact, at one point we had this enabled long, long, long ago in the original CMSF development time period.  The problem here isn't the calculations, it's how it impacts the TacAI.  The TacAI would need to be "smart" enough to not try and shoot through its own units.  This is technically possible, but not very practical because of the cascading impact of lots of failed LOF checks and the need for a lot of logic programming to determine when it is safe to shoot and not shoot.

At one point we had friendly shots able to pass through solid objects but not enemy shots.  This proved to be a cheat.  I could put my guys behind a tank and shoot at the enemy to my heart's content, but the enemy's return fire would hit the tank.  I don't remember how long this was in the game, but I'm nearly positive it was publicly released in the early CMSF1 days.  We removed it because the cheat was significant and common, however Brille's post reminded me that we let it remain for small arms fire once the vehicle is KO'd.  But I am hazy on the details.

I think that's about all there is on this topic.

Steve

[JM Stuff]

Very interesting Steve.

So in this way I asking something, I know that the wrecks in the way that I am doing don't reflect the reallity, so what kind of FO's can be used to represent a wreck vehicle, but having "approximatively", the properties similar as a real damaged or burned vehicle already in CM?

I hope is understanding enough.

Thanks in advance to all infos.

Cheers

 

[Battlefront.com]

8 minutes ago, JM Stuff said:

Very interesting Steve.

So in this way I asking something, I know that the wrecks in the way that I am doing don't reflect the reallity, so what kind of FO's can be used to represent a wreck vehicle, but having "approximatively", the properties similar as a real damaged or burned vehicle already in CM?

I hope is understanding enough.

Thanks in advance to all infos.

Cheers

 

Wrecked vehicles are on the edge of what the Flavor Object system was designed to handle.  Initially it was coded for smaller things which don't have much LOS blocking potential, such as a park bench, lamp post, etc.  A large object, such as a wrecked tank, is significant enough in size that it should be blocking LOS as well as LOF.  That's two things Flavor Objects aren't designed to do, therefore we've stayed away from anything like that.  Instead we rely upon Fortifications and pre-game knocked out playable vehicles for that sort of thing.

The furthest we pushed the Flavor Object system that I can think of is for some civilian cars in CMRT's Fire and Rubble Module.

Steve

[kohlenklau]

45 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

I think that's about all there is on this topic.

A sincere thank you Steve for the meaty explanation. Excellent stuff to know about our favorite game. 

We'll have it handy as this topic ALWAYS comes up. In fact I whipped out your other old(er) comments earlier in this new thread.

I know you are busy in your favorite thread but some time down the line maybe you could also explain in a meaty way, how the QB AI computer selects an OOB.  

[JM Stuff]

3 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Wrecked vehicles are on the edge of what the Flavor Object system was designed to handle.  Initially it was coded for smaller things which don't have much LOS blocking potential, such as a park bench, lamp post, etc.  A large object, such as a wrecked tank, is significant enough in size that it should be blocking LOS as well as LOF.  That's two things Flavor Objects aren't designed to do, therefore we've stayed away from anything like that.  Instead we rely upon Fortifications and pre-game knocked out playable vehicles for that sort of thing.

The furthest we pushed the Flavor Object system that I can think of is for some civilian cars in CMRT's Fire and Rubble Module.

Steve

Thank you Steve to take the time to answer.

I know having différents views from damaged or burned vehicles are not very useful in the game and they are only "candy", but can we perhaps see in the future, a way that we have différents views, on burned or damaged vehicles, the tracks for exemple when is also only a BMP file, this will not take too much change in the code I guess ?

I don't know exactly the system that you are using, I guess is the same system like the dead soldiers, that we never see nowhere a BMP file that we can eventual replace, but I think this will be interresting.

Of course for the "pure" tactical gamers this will be a drop in the ocean, and not important, but, I think, a little more details, will be welcome !

Thank you in advance to your answer

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by JM Stuff

[RockinHarry]

Thanks Steve! Fairly well all coincides with my own observations and making my mind on what´s actually happening in the game. So the lil bit of cover given my small flavor objects (while hardly to be noticed at all) benefits infantry vs. small arms fire the most I guess. So for vehicle type FO addition, monuments (large FO, hard material) should still be the "best" choice IMO. Haystacks and carts are good for blocking LOS (large FO) but do lil to nothing for LOF.

For my "8x8m node grid and infantry path finding, though not actively seeking "cover" behind FO´s - conclusion", things remain undisputed I guess. Nice. No two things on the same 1m node can exist the same time. Also reason for frequent "floating" rubble FO´s in (damaged) buildings at game start. While not quite a bug, it´s surely a game engine glitch.

So far, so good.

[PEB14]

11 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Thanks Steve! Fairly well all coincides with my own observations and making my mind on what´s actually happening in the game. So the lil bit of cover given my small flavor objects (while hardly to be noticed at all) benefits infantry vs. small arms fire the most I guess. So for vehicle type FO addition, monuments (large FO, hard material) should still be the "best" choice IMO. Haystacks and carts are good for blocking LOS (large FO) but do lil to nothing for LOF.

For my "8x8m node grid and infantry path finding, though not actively seeking "cover" behind FO´s - conclusion", things remain undisputed I guess. Nice. No two things on the same 1m node can exist the same time. Also reason for frequent "floating" rubble FO´s in (damaged) buildings at game start. While not quite a bug, it´s surely a game engine glitch.

So far, so good.

I understand exactly the opposite from Steve's most interesting post: Haystacks and carts have absolutely no effect on LOS but do have on LOF:

15 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Vehicles are chaotic.  They change locations ALL THE TIME.  Unlike terrain features, their positions are not limited to a predetermined angle relative to the map grid.  They can also be in several Action Spots at once and to different degrees.  This is inherently incompatible with the LOS Map engineering, and since that engineering is the only reason the game can run, it can't be accommodated.

Flavor Objects are similar.  Their position within an Action Spot, size, and shape are all chaotic from a coding standpoint.  There's no practical way to integrate them into the LOS system, therefore they are ignored from an LOS standpoint.

LOF (Line of Fire), on the other hand, is always calculated on-the-fly.  In this case Flavor Objects are predictable enough to incorporate into LOF calculations.  Each Flavor Object is given a rough size (I don't remember how many variants, but it is something like None, Small, Medium, and Large) so that a couple of buckets doesn't block LOF while a destroyed car has pretty good blockage.  The Flavor Object can also have very simplistic protection ratings, again quite rough but still enough that a couple of barrels doesn't behave the same as a pile of bricks.

Steve

 

[RockinHarry]

2 hours ago, PEB14 said:

I understand exactly the opposite from Steve's most interesting post: Haystacks and carts have absolutely no effect on LOS but do have on LOF:

 

Interesting. If you don´t confuse terms (LOS - Line of Sight, LOF - Line of Fire), that shouldn´t be the case. I´d also recommend checking my flavor object test map (and bits of read info in that thread), then make your own test. It´s CMRT, but you can make a similar one for other games easily. ---> https://community.battlefront.com/topic/139520-berlin-cmrt-map/page/21/#comment-1958146 

[PEB14]

1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

Interesting. If you don´t confuse terms (LOS - Line of Sight, LOF - Line of Fire), that shouldn´t be the case. I´d also recommend checking my flavor object test map (and bits of read info in that thread), then make your own test. It´s CMRT, but you can make a similar one for other games easily. ---> https://community.battlefront.com/topic/139520-berlin-cmrt-map/page/21/#comment-1958146 

I don't:

19 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Flavor Objects (...) are ignored from an LOS standpoint.

(...) Flavor Objects are predictable enough to incorporate into LOF calculations.  Each Flavor Object is given a rough size (I don't remember how many variants, but it is something like None, Small, Medium, and Large) so that a couple of buckets doesn't block LOF while a destroyed car has pretty good blockage.  The Flavor Object can also have very simplistic protection ratings, again quite rough but still enough that a couple of barrels doesn't behave the same as a pile of bricks.

LOS - Line of Sight: not affected by FO

LOF - Line of Fire: affected by FO

[Battlefront.com]

Oddly enough, last night I had to review some supplemental information provided to our Pro customers.  I wrote this a couple of years ago:

Quote

Flavor Objects do interfere with Line of Fire, but do not interfere with Line of Sight.  This means Flavor Objects offer some degree of protection, but do nothing for inhibiting spotting.  It’s one of the few exceptions where LOS and LOF are not aligned as one would expect.  That has to do with Flavor Objects originally being very small things like park benches, hand carts, etc. where concealment really isn’t viable

This is more succinct than my longer explanation above, so not as fun   However, it summarizes the main differences between treatment of LOS and LOF.

Steve

[RockinHarry]

This is what I´s talking about re Haystack and shack class FO

Why the f*ck can´t I embed Imgur pics anymore? Well then:

https://imgur.com/a/HAeIehQ

Edited February 23, 2023 by RockinHarry

[Battlefront.com]

13 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

This is what I´s talking about re Haystack and shack class FO

Why the f*ck can´t I embed Imgur pics anymore? Well then:

https://imgur.com/a/HAeIehQ

If LOS was blocked by the object it would be at the location of the object, not beyond it.

Steve

[RockinHarry]

13 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

If LOS was blocked by the object it would be at the location of the object, not beyond it.

Steve

To me it means you can´t target an enemy unit (of action spot) beyond a haystack and shack/privy. It´s the only flavor objects (in CMRT) providing that LOS blockage. And if there´s no LOS with target command, then there´s no shooting (LOF), right?