CMRT BARBAROSSA DER BUSSARD

[kohlenklau]

OK, when it comes to CM stuff, I am a crazy wannabe chef, I have meals on the stove, meals being served, meals still marinating, meals in the planning phase and meals I am starting the research. Even if some of my cooking might make you barf, I do enjoy the process.

So, I am encouraged by @Heinrich505 to try and do an early Wittmann scenario. It has been tried before. CMBB I think and some other game platforms. Point 65.5 in Ukraine. A lone short barrel StugIII vs 18 T-34's is the story I read. 6 were KO'd and the rest vamoosed. It was on either 7.13.41 or 7.12.41.  I think it was near Sokoliv. I have Rudolf Lehman's The Leibstandarte II but it has normal errors in memory and recollection. I have Google Earth and am looking for anything with an elevation of 65.5 meters but it is all much higher in elevation. 200+ Hmmm. I am not a map elevation history expert. Maybe they had errors and I will not find this mythical point 65.5.

Many talented folks have bitten into this and the old web archives even show a benpark in an old non-BFC forum discussing it circa 2009. @benpark

I have my early Stug mod with StugIII riding the 251 Stummel but now I also have as an option to use a 2nd version where you have the armor of the StugIII but smoke and mirrors makes the long 75 look short.

This will be fun. Chime in if you have any comments. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by kohlenklau

[benpark]

I vaguely remember that! Only vaguely.

Head way back to 2002, and see where the Berlin maps really got their start. A few of us were trying to turn CMBO into CMBB early. As soon as it was out, really.

We are a long line of adapters.

 

[benpark]

8 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

Even if some of my cooking might make you barf, I do enjoy the process.

That's the spirit. A chef must have the buffet eaten (and mainly enjoyed, but barfs can and will happen) to truly be worthy of the title.

[kohlenklau]

What is the opinion of any experienced researchers here?

I propose that the so called Point 65.5 is NOT a true detail but came from a propaganda story or post-war reiteration?

In 5 minutes I have hit paydirt for 1;100,000 maps for this area from Polish sources dated 1931.

P47 S 46 PULINY

All the terrain info on this 1931 map roughly matches the Google Earth GE numbers for elevations. ~200m

This IS the area of the LSSAH tactical focus on 7.11.1941-7.13.1941 and Lehmann page 30-41 describes it with words like "baptism of fire".

I think this is the general area where Wittmann's buzzard first fought against Soviet AFV's.

I used GE Image Overlay function where you can color the terrain a certain color if it is at a certain elevation. I didn't even have an indication that anything near here was even below 200m absolute!

The sad thing is IF all the details of the story behind Wittman's first battle are hogwash. Hold on, I think I have a book on WIttman...

TIGER ACE: The Life Story of Panzer Commander Michael Wittmann by Gary L. Simpson. Page 86 starts the "Point 65.5" story...and talks about Dubno, Olyka, Moszkove, Moszkov, Rovno, Luck, Borbin...

Looking at more of the maps in that excellent online collection http://igrek.amzp.pl/ I do not see anything around the 65.5 meter range.

Lehmann's book clearly states the action of 7.12 and 7.13 was a bit farther east near good old Sokolov now called Sokoliv.

WTF!!

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by kohlenklau

[Heinrich505]

Phil,

I am looking in the book Tiger Ace, The Life Story of Panzer Commander Wittmann, by Gary L. Simpson, but I don't seem to be much help on this.  I thought the author would be able to really nail the location down, but he doesn't.

There is mention that Wittmann's unit is in the area of Moszkov, and he is given orders to advance "...to [a] stream at point 65.5 and guard.  Reconnaissance probe reports possible enemy panzer attack."  There is mention that LAH is now trying to make contact with the light infantry battalion of the 25th Infantry Division.

There is no further help in locating 65.5, and I scoured the map you attached but I didn't find Moszkov on it.  As you suspected and noted, the date is July 12th.

Sorry I'm not more help in tying down the elusive and mysterious 65.5. 

Gary

[kohlenklau]

@akd I know it is the holidays but if you desire to help out in this area of your well regarded skill and passion and have time, could you please tell us how many Stug's were in the LSSAH in July 1941? I did some research but did not find a specific reliable answer...250 Stugs in 11 battalions. I don't know if the below is a typo and Sturmbatterie should be some other word? Did LSSAH just have 7 StuGs in July 1941?

STURMBATTERIE 1941 (K.ST.N446)

Now, the 1941 version was quite similar, a major change was the addition of the 7th StuG in the headquarters unit. Furthermore for this unit, I have some data on men & equipment.
In total there were 5 officers, 1 official, 37 NCOs and 83 enlisted men. Additionally, 9 light machine guns, 17 trucks, 6 cars, 7 StuGs and 3 light armored ammo carries.
As you can see the early batteries were quite small with only 2 guns, this number increased throughout the war.

[kohlenklau]

16 minutes ago, Heinrich505 said:

Sorry I'm not more help in tying down the elusive and mysterious 65.5. 

You are retired Gary! Grab the Mrs and get some airline tickets and head out to Ukraine. I will forward a useful phrases pdf file...

[Heinrich505]

Hahaha.  I'm sure the wife has always wanted to visit the Ukraine.  

[kohlenklau]

6 minutes ago, Heinrich505 said:

Hahaha.  I'm sure the wife has always wanted to visit the Ukraine.  

You and I can go! I have a web article here... "Lovely Ukrainian Ladies desire to host 2 older American males for overnight discussions of 1941 war time local history. Old Grandpa's basement contains relics such as MP-40 and old helmets. All inclusive vodka, borsch and sauna fun. Free ride from airport in lend-lease Studebaker truck."

[kohlenklau]

The other part of the puzzle is did he REALLY face 18 T-34's?

[benpark]

I just took a look at the most obvious book on the matter that I have handy (by Massimiliano Afiero), and he does cite the eighteen T34/76's number, but I don't see a particular footnote on his source but they are listed. No formation listing for the Soviet side, which would help verify some of that.

He also states that Bussard moved under cover of a "moat" to take the Soviets under fire initially. So, be on the lookout on the source maps for a man-made waterway, possibly. It also seems that the German tank displaced at least twice at the start of the fight, since it was turretless. In case you are doing a German AI for the person wanting to try eighteen T-34/76s versus one StuG. The Soviets also seemed active and moving between positions, so it doesn't seem like a static situation.

Detective work, now. If you find it, you will likely know it - and then be able to make something that people haven't really been able to entirely comprehend on a page. That's the best part in all of this hard work.

[Heinrich505]

I think the free ride in a lend-lease Studebaker, along with the vodka, borsch, and sauna fun really seals the deal.  

In the two sources that I have, I think he actually observed 18 T34s total, but really engaged two sets of three T34s, as the impression I got was that it wasn't a giant phalanx of 18 T34s crusing across the valley.  They were likely broken up into 6 sets of 3 tanks each.

In one of my sources, he engages and destroys a KV-1 at 400 meters with a shot to the turret ring, as one of the three tanks he kills, but in the other, he only destroyed T34s.  I'm inclined to believe the KV-1 might have been an error and that the entire group of 18 were all T34s.

There was a lot of moving and maneuver on Wittmann's part, dropping into gullys, or crashing through wooded areas.  He was trying to flank the Russian tanks, as he knew frontal shots against them were kind of futile with his short 75.  From the narrative, his gunner was going for the turret ring or the rear engine compartment.  He managed to blunder into some of the Russian tank groups, so Benpark is right on about the action being very fluid and mobile.

[kohlenklau]

Here is my theory! This came to me last night and today got firmed up.

This is the dude who started all the supposed true stories...Paul Carell. Raise your hand if you were a kid and read one of his exciting "books" about WW2. Raise the other hand if you still have an old dog eared paperback you lugged around in the 70's.

Real name: former Nazi Paul Karl Schmidt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Carell 

I think he had lots of contacts and could get some juicy anecdotes to put into a book. Wittmann was dead so the entire Point 65.5 thing is just like he did in "Foxes of the Desert" with Point 208. Enough true stuff or true sounding stuff fleshed out with whatever else he needed to make it work. He just grinds it out and gets it published.

The Point 65.5 story seems to be first described in Hitler Moves East: 1941-1943. New York: Little, Brown, 1964 ISBN 0-921991-11-8

Everybody since then just stamped it as true even with the conflict to elevations and dates and locations. Gary Simpson's Tiger Ace book has in the references a book by Carell but also Lehmann's series. Nobody seems to have done any asking why Point 65.5 was called that if the elevations were all higher... 

 

[kohlenklau]

Lehmann lists the following Soviet units attacking towards where LSSAH was defending "Rollbahn Nord" on the way to Zhitomir: 5th Army with 1st Rifle Corps. 9th, 19th and 22nd Mechanized Corps. Anybody know if they had at least 18 T-34's in their TOE? 

[kohlenklau]

No irrigation ditches or moats seen on the 1931 map...

[George MC]

All accounts I’ve seen of this action are short on links to references to cross check. All seem to be rehashes off the same account but not seen link to the original ie I’d expect at least the commendation account for the Iron Cross. Just checked Agte and whilst mentions the event is light on detail though does list the crew so assume had access to something but again no link/reference to who or what that something was.
So yeah I’d be cautious about the details of the ‘orginal’ account…

Wider discussion but debate re the Stug event https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=151479&hilit=Wittmann+1941

Near the end of this thread discussion re his stug record. 

Edited December 27, 2021 by George MC

[kohlenklau]

3 hours ago, George MC said:

All accounts

Thanks George. "Cheery!" 

 

 

 

[kohlenklau]

Here is my plan: I will make the scenario like a campaign with battle 1 being a player choice. They decide to use the earlystug mod version a or version b. THEN they get my scenario editor interpretation of the event.

I am now slowly re-reading the written account to guide my scenario editor efforts!

STANDBY!

[kohlenklau]

@Heinrich505 Gary, if you have time, sometime soon, please crack open Simpson's book again and I will make a rough sketch of what I see as the map before I crank it out in the map editor. Your job is to double check me...

[Heinrich505]

Okay.  Will do.

[George MC]

17 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

Lehmann lists the following Soviet units attacking towards where LSSAH was defending "Rollbahn Nord" on the way to Zhitomir: 5th Army with 1st Rifle Corps. 9th, 19th and 22nd Mechanized Corps. Anybody know if they had at least 18 T-34's in their TOE? 

You sure about the numbering of the mechanized corps Phil? You mean tank corps?

[Heinrich505]

Phil, it just occurred to me that 65.8 might not even be an identifiable height location.  It was common for German commanders to use a grid set over a map, with a straight line drawn across the map.  Then, positions to advance to were referred to by using the grid, not the actual location, to avoid the Russians listening in on radio frequencies and figuring out what the German destinations were.  So, 65 might just be a number on an X axis, that cross-referenced to 8 on a Y axis.  Where those two met on the straight line across the map, was where the destination was, and the Russians would have no clue, unless they had the map.

Of course this doesn't help us at all, but it might explain why all the elevations listed on your P47_S46_PULINY_1931_300dpi map seem to have nothing even close to the elusive 65.8.  In my second reference, Panzer Aces by Franz Kurowski, the point reference is 56.9, again located near a stream.  This account is much briefer, but lines up very much with the one from Simpson's book, again pretty close in details, but one of the tanks destroyed by Wittmann in Kurowski's book is a KV-1.  

[kohlenklau]

4 minutes ago, George MC said:

You sure about the numbering of the mechanized corps Phil? You mean tank corps?

I went off of what was in Lehmann's mapbook. It did seem to match a wikipedia article on 9th Mechanized Corps.

[kohlenklau]

34 minutes ago, Heinrich505 said:

Phil, it just occurred to me

An overlay, yes, I can see that. Reminds me of an old movie "Five Graves to Cairo" and the letters EGYPT on a map were where supplies had been buried by archaeologists before the war to help the DAK.

Here is what I have so far from TRYING to turn written words into movements. On the 1931 maps this entire area is studded with huts/houses/dwellings. The written account describes just a wooded area with no mention of even encountering any huts or dwellings. I will do my best to make an entertaining fun scenario based off the suspect written account. Why not!

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by kohlenklau

[George MC]

16 minutes ago, kohlenklau said:

I went off of what was in Lehmann's mapbook. It did seem to match a wikipedia article on 9th Mechanized Corps.

Ah cool. This link starts at 43 so reckon the OOB must be missing for prior. Not surprisingly. http://tankfront.ru/ussr/mk/mk09.html