CMRT BARBAROSSA DER BUSSARD

[George MC]

6 minutes ago, kohlenklau said:

An overlay, yes, I can see that. Reminds me of an old movie "Five Graves to Cairo" and the letters EGYPT on a map were where supplies had been buried by archaeologists before the war to help the DAK.

Here is what I have so far from TRYING to turn written words into movements. On the 1931 maps this entire area is studded with huts/houses/dwellings. The written account describes just a wooded area with no mention of even encountering any huts or dwellings. I will do my best to make an entertaining fun scenario based off the suspect written account. Why not!

 

Stosslinie is what it’s cried. The line orientation thingy. This wee article by Andreas ex of this parish gives a good overview. https://www.google.com/amp/s/rommelsriposte.com/2014/12/29/an-example-of-a-stosslinie/amp/

[benpark]

Most of the mechanized research I was doing was 1944/45, but this link is helpful for understanding the makeup and use of the early-war thinking for their implementation. The mix of KV-1's and T-34's is also broken down, which also supports these Soviet formations being one of the numbered:

http://www.warandtactics.com/smf/tank-mechanized-corps/soviet-tankmech-corps-in-wwii/?wap2

[George MC]

20 hours ago, kohlenklau said:

Lehmann lists the following Soviet units attacking towards where LSSAH was defending "Rollbahn Nord" on the way to Zhitomir: 5th Army with 1st Rifle Corps. 9th, 19th and 22nd Mechanized Corps. Anybody know if they had at least 18 T-34's in their TOE? 

Here is your:

9 Mech Corps and make up:

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/warunit/9 мк/?backurl=/warunit/?static_hash%3D716778e1345971de166925b981bcb656%26q%3D9 %26page%3D5

19 Mech Corps and its makeup

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/warunit/19 мк/?backurl=/warunit/?static_hash%3D716778e1345971de166925b981bcb656%26q%3D19%26page%3D6

22 Mech Corps

https://pamyat-naroda.ru/warunit/22 мк/?backurl=/warunit/?static_hash%3D716778e1345971de166925b981bcb656%26q%3D22%26page%3D5

If you click on the links then the google maps it'll take you to a period map which lays out their combat path. Should enable you to narrow down who was where in your date range.

You can also find the units war diary for various periods. Google translate scan app will do a okayish job of translating the diaries - even hand written stuff.

Edited December 27, 2021 by George MC

[kohlenklau]

10 minutes ago, George MC said:

Here is your:

Thanks much! I will break out some vodka and look it over

[George MC]

14 minutes ago, kohlenklau said:

Thanks much! I will break out some vodka and look it over

Grand - even if if you don't use it its interesting stuff - primary source materials straight to your PC. I suspect digging deeper you could work out the veracity of the Wittmann story. Just today digging into this account I share your scepticism. It's an odd one for sure. I'm not disputing he did not engage some T-34s but there is some odd stuff going on with his personal kills tallying. Agte in Tiger Commanders does have some 1stPerson descriptions and character profiles of the man but Agte is not really an objective researcher. Still interesting to read.

Na Zdorovie!!

Edited December 27, 2021 by George MC

[Heinrich505]

Thanks, George.  I couldn't remember what it was called but I was pretty sure someone here would.  

Phil, the movements you diagrammed look pretty good for his first encounter.  That would be kill #1 and #2.

After your drawing, he then drove east for a few minutes and ended up in a small wooded area.  He dismounted, and did foot recon, finding another T-34 beyond the small woods.  The T-34 spotted him and fired, but his crew had also spotted the Russian and they fired as well, blasting the turret off the T-34.  That would be the 2nd encounter and kill #3.  

It appears that he then drove a few hundred meters to the south along the edge of a wooded area.  They were spotted and had to race into more woods to avoid the Russian tank fire.  From the narrative it appears they dashed south, and then into more woods, but once hidden, they located another Russian tank to their east, because he has his driver turn to the left.  He got the drop on the Russian tanker, and fired first, destroying the enemy tank.  This would be kill #4. 

Then it would appear they reversed from that area, drove for a while (south???...it's not clear) and then has his driver turn to the west and dash across a small clearing into a group of large trees.  At this point he spots 3 T-34s on a nearby rise.  It would seem he is lower than the Russians, as he says they are silhouetted against the blue sky.  While attempting to maneuver closer, they almost get bogged in a large stream, but manage to back out. 

In searching for a safer crossing, Wittmann has his driver turn right (north, I'm guessing) and they find a better crossing, splashing across to what is described as the southeast bank...which doesn't seem right if they were on the east side of the stream.  They are sneaking up behind three Russian tanks, and get to about 500 meters from them, and behind them.  

It would appear that they knocked out the center tank with a shot to the rear engine compartment.  That's kill #5.  Then they turned left to deal with the next tank, which apparently spun around to face them.  It took three rounds to the front of the T-34 to supposedly kill it, with a shot in the turret ring that jammed the turret.  The third Russian tank dashed off the hill to safety somewhere.

They thought that was it, and started to check their assault gun for damage, but apparently the Russian tank crew managed to unjam their turret, and got off a shot that was a very close miss.  Wittmann's boys recovered quickly and put one shot to the turret ring again, and this time the enemy tank started to burn.  This would be kill #6. 

[kohlenklau]

8 minutes ago, Heinrich505 said:

Phil, the movements you diagrammed look pretty good for his first encounter.

Wow, yes, it just goes on and on in detail and I did get confused after a while. Thanks for the back up assist!

How to take all that and turn it into a scenario is a bit baffling. I might have to press the creative license override button and just make it a condensed version. This is kind of your Christmas present Gary, you inspired me to delve into this....so...you'd be ok with a condensed version my friend or what would you like to see?

[kohlenklau]

In some other army if you did not have a Knight's Cross...<paraphrasing in German accent> "I decided to pull back TWO KILOMETERS TO THE SOUTH TO GAIN A BETTER VANTAGE POINT for destroying the 18 enemy tanks..." will get you shot! 

but then again, to maneuver and end up alive with 6 kills is praiseworthy

 

Edited December 27, 2021 by kohlenklau

[Heinrich505]

Haha.  That certainly did seem a big distance to "re-orient" ones self.

I'd love to see whatever you decide to put together.  I don't know how all the maneuvering would be possible without all sorts of triggers and complicated AI commands for the Russian tanks.  He was all over the place, stumbling into knots of enemy tanks that seemed to be doing a lot of stumbling of their own.  Use your creative license and condense as you see fit.  We are already way ahead with your StuG creation.  Now I'm wondering if the short StuG can get penetrations on a T-34 from the front.  I think it will be very exciting, even if a bit quick.  One hit on the halftrack masquerading as an assault gun will likely be fatal.  

The trick will be, how not to be hit, paraphrasing Monty Pythons How Not to be Seen.

[kohlenklau]

11 minutes ago, Heinrich505 said:

Use your creative license and condense as you see fit.

Here is my plan: I will make the scenario like a campaign with battle 1 being a player choice. They decide to use the earlystug mod version a or version b. THEN they get my scenario editor interpretation of the event. I am excited to see how the 2 versions compare...

Edited December 27, 2021 by kohlenklau

[Heinrich505]

A good plan.  I, too, am excited to see how things play out.

[kohlenklau]

oh bummer, I never noticed before but the one "earlystug" mod based on the actual Stummel L/24 even with FULL ammo just doesn't have the ammo loadout we'd want to see! It only has 4 HEAT rounds, no AP, the rest is HE. I guess we must just use the "earlystug" based off a Blender Mod of the StugIII. You'll see a short barrel but have the physics of the normal StugIII. Here is where I call BFC and beg Santa Steve for a quick assist midnight patch!

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by kohlenklau

[akd]

On 12/26/2021 at 11:12 AM, kohlenklau said:

@akd I know it is the holidays but if you desire to help out in this area of your well regarded skill and passion and have time, could you please tell us how many Stug's were in the LSSAH in July 1941? I did some research but did not find a specific reliable answer...250 Stugs in 11 battalions. I don't know if the below is a typo and Sturmbatterie should be some other word? Did LSSAH just have 7 StuGs in July 1941?

STURMBATTERIE 1941 (K.ST.N446)

Now, the 1941 version was quite similar, a major change was the addition of the 7th StuG in the headquarters unit. Furthermore for this unit, I have some data on men & equipment.
In total there were 5 officers, 1 official, 37 NCOs and 83 enlisted men. Additionally, 9 light machine guns, 17 trucks, 6 cars, 7 StuGs and 3 light armored ammo carries.
As you can see the early batteries were quite small with only 2 guns, this number increased throughout the war.

Yes, a single battery with 7x StuG.

http://niehorster.org/011_germany/41_organ_army/41_div-mot_ss-lah.html

Edited December 28, 2021 by akd

[kohlenklau]

12 minutes ago, akd said:

Yes, a single battery with 7x StuG.

Thank you sir. I appreciate the confirmation. Happy New Year 2022 to you. 

[Gary R Lukas]

Well although I am only 60, If I went to the Ukraine it would only be a one-way ticket, I would just need to find out how I can get my AR_15a2 Heavy Barrel rifle there, I can hit a quarter at 500 meters with it every time

[chuckdyke]

13 minutes ago, Gary R Lukas said:

, I can hit a quarter at 500 meters with it every time

If somebody shoots at you too? You're one heck of a cool dude. 

[Gary R Lukas]

I hunt for a living, and when you are coming down on a White-tailed deer, who can smell better than a drug dog, hear and see way better then you can, and now you have to sneak up on him to about 40 meters so you can put an arrow thru its heart, yeah it's kind of like that. My blood pressure drops, my heartbeat slows down and now i'm only keyed on one issue, a nice clean humane death shot.

[danfrodo]

56 minutes ago, Gary R Lukas said:

I hunt for a living, and when you are coming down on a White-tailed deer, who can smell better than a drug dog, hear and see way better then you can, and now you have to sneak up on him to about 40 meters so you can put an arrow thru its heart, yeah it's kind of like that. My blood pressure drops, my heartbeat slows down and now i'm only keyed on one issue, a nice clean humane death shot.

You hunt for a living?  I am not a hunter but that is super f--ing cool. 

[Kuli]

On 8/23/2022 at 1:07 AM, Gary R Lukas said:

I hunt for a living, and when you are coming down on a White-tailed deer, who can smell better than a drug dog, hear and see way better then you can, and now you have to sneak up on him to about 40 meters so you can put an arrow thru its heart, yeah it's kind of like that. My blood pressure drops, my heartbeat slows down and now i'm only keyed on one issue, a nice clean humane death shot.

i wouldnt compare war to hunting a deer

[Gary R Lukas]

I agree, War is Pure Hell, you are always watching your back, can't sleep, your cold, hungry, fingers are frostbite. These Ukrainian Patriots Soldiers are freaking WAR MACHINES!!!!! These people fighting for their freedom are just awesome. Throughout history, people who are fighting for Freedom always defeat the invader. Look at WWII, at the beginning the Ukrainian People welcomed the German Army as liberators from Stalin, but when the people learned that the Nazi's and SS were no better than the Communists, they then fought for 2-3 years fighting against the Nazi's, again fighting for their freedom. Once people have a taste of freedom in their lives, they will fight and do whatever they have too just to keep it.

[Kuli]

with that said you still could not hit an evasive target at 500m under combat conditions

[Vacillator]

Not sure the recent posts have much to do with the original thread?  Perhaps a mis-post, but a totally new conversation about hunting seems to have been added.  At the very least, I'd move that to General Discussion.