Spotting bug report.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

The question you should probably be asking is 'How ridiculous does this seem compared to all the times that my units were in a similar situation and did see the enemy tanks first?'

It's the outliers that stick with us. 

[Centurian52]

This looks fine to me. The Soviet infantry are running, which decreases their spotting ability, and add that to relatively low light conditions. They all seem to be aware that the Panthers are there (three contact icons for three Panthers), with third squad/A team having firm spots on two of the Panthers, with the third hidden behind the trees. As for why the Panther spotted the infantry, it is probably a mix of luck, assistance from the nearby German infantry, the fact that they are stationary (which helps a lot with spotting), and the fact that the Soviet infantry were running (making them a lot easier to spot). The fact that the infantry were to the Panther's side makes them harder to see than if they were to the front, but not impossible (they are not behind the Panther at the time it starts to react to them).

There is a lot of randomness involved with CM spotting (if you replayed this turn 100 times then who spots who and when will be different every time). The Panther got lucky this time (the commander likely happened to be looking out of one of the righthand windows in his cupola at the time the infantry were running by) and the infantry were unlucky (they were focusing on where they were running, and didn't directly see the Panthers in the low light even though they were aware that it was there (contact icons were present)). 

edit: The infantry are also tired and nervous, both of which are detrimental to spotting

Edited October 27, 2021 by Centurian52

[Artkin]

My guys are able to see 300 meters+ in these conditions right now with blue lines of sight. I get the whole randomness thing with CM, I've played a lot. It truly feels like the amount of randomness (Variance in the spotting) this game has is a bit too much.. If anything I1 should have spotted these panthers first IMO. These guys must seriously be smoking meth.

I wound up shooting and killing the infantry squad from around 80 meters away. It doesn't seem right at all. My opponent had two Kar 98's laying in the bushes and they were shot right through the panthers lol.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Artkin

[zmoney]

The best question is; why are you rushing a tank platoon with infantry that have not AT capabilities?????

 

But seriously I think this may be one of those outliers that really stick with you. In another thread you said you have 15 PBEM’s going on, now if this happens in every single instance I’d say it’s a problem. I think everyone who plays this game have witnessed stuff that makes us go WTF!!!! But we tend to forget the overwhelming instances where things work as WE think they should.

[Centurian52]

It isn't all about distance. Your troops can see from any distance, although it will take longer on average for them to spot the same target from further away. Keep in mind all of the factors that effect spotting. Your troops don't spot as well if they are running. Their spotting will get worse the more tired they get, and the more nervous they get. Poorer skill and leadership will degrade spotting. Low light conditions will degrade spotting. It is easier to spot moving targets than it is to spot stationary targets. Your troops will spot targets to their front faster than they will spot targets to their side. They will have a harder time spotting targets that are in trees or bushes. They will have a harder time spotting infantry that are lying down vs standing up. It will be easier to spot targets that are shooting than targets that are holding fire (keep in mind that if the target is shooting at your troops then they could get suppressed, which will make spotting harder).

And keep in mind that spotting takes time. Eventually your troops will see anything that isn't obscured by smoke or terrain, but it could take several minutes to both see and identify it. The factors that make spotting "harder" really make it take longer on average to spot the target. Your troops likely don't have much difficulty seeing the enemy at long range because they have had plenty of time to spot the enemy (also more troops have a chance to spot the target and inform other troops down the line about it). Whereas in short range encounters they are likely to have less time to spot the enemy (also, fewer troops may be around to spot the enemy in short range encounters). If the target is only exposed for a short period then they may not see it at all, or they may see it (get a contact icon) but not have enough time to identify it.

[Artkin]

9 minutes ago, zmoney said:

The best question is; why are you rushing a tank platoon with infantry that have not AT capabilities?????

They have AT capabilities.... I have killed plenty of tanks with infantry alone. On this scenario I basically have next to no anti-tank capabilities besides AT grenades and rushing tanks.

10 minutes ago, zmoney said:

But seriously I think this may be one of those outliers that really stick with you.

Yeah it probably is. I've just been seeing these weird moments more and more.

11 minutes ago, zmoney said:

In another thread you said you have 15 PBEM’s going on, now if this happens in every single instance I’d say it’s a problem.

This is true, the only weird spotting I have noticed have been in CMCW, and occasionally in CMRT. On "Myth of invincibility" in CMRT I had a Jpz IV shooting through smoke killing all my T34's and SU's, after totally smashing the house it was next to (With about 10 guns at once), causing a massive amount of smoke. Then the thing just shot through the smoke lol. Then I'm having two tanks shoot through multiple trees in the same scenario... they never should have spotted each other. I think vegetation should be harder to see through. Especially the top/middle of the tree.

11 minutes ago, Centurian52 said:

It isn't all about distance. Your troops can see from any distance, although it will take longer on average for them to spot the same target from further away. Keep in mind all of the factors that effect spotting. Your troops don't spot as well if they are running. Their spotting will get worse the more tired they get, and the more nervous they get. Poorer skill and leadership will degrade spotting. Low light conditions will degrade spotting. It is easier to spot moving targets than it is to spot stationary targets. Your troops will spot targets to their front faster than they will spot targets to their side. They will have a harder time spotting targets that are in trees or bushes. They will have a harder time spotting infantry that are lying down vs standing up. It will be easier to spot targets that are shooting than targets that are holding fire (keep in mind that if the target is shooting at your troops then they could get suppressed, which will make spotting harder).

And keep in mind that spotting takes time. Eventually your troops will see anything that isn't obscured by smoke or terrain, but it could take several minutes to both see and identify it. The factors that make spotting "harder" really make it take longer on average to spot the target. Your troops likely don't have much difficulty seeing the enemy at long range because they have had plenty of time to spot the enemy (also more troops have a chance to spot the target and inform other troops down the line about it). Whereas in short range encounters they are likely to have less time to spot the enemy (also, fewer troops may be around to spot the enemy in short range encounters). If the target is only exposed for a short period then they may not see it at all, or they may see it (get a contact icon) but not have enough time to identify it.

Typically I agree with this. With armor, I think it should be pretty obvious to hear a half sized shipping container with an engine roaring on the back.

And my troops were actually chasing these tanks for a couple turns, they had known that they were there. The panther also saw my guys when it drove right through them a couple turns back.

The thing that irked me the most was that the panthers saw the infantry running from the rear. These guys seem a little too oblivious for me.

Time to spot obviously matters, but it should be a little easier to see three behemoth vehicles with loud engines. Once my infantry started firing (Not I1 or I2) from another position, a few rounds hit the panther, and the reaction was immediate, turning to contact. They just seem a little too good in this instance.

I'm not trying to trash the game or say it's bad, but I want things like this to be acknowledged so we know oddities like this exist. In my opinion, this is a little too odd.

[zmoney]

I know they say that the same code is used in all the games, and I do believe that but…… for whatever reason CMCW seems to have more issues than the other games on my computer anyway. Maybe it has something to do with the scenario design??? Because I’m currently in a PBEM meeting engagement and everything seems to be working smoothly.

[Redwolf]

I agree that the original post points out something that shouldn't happen.

It isn't so much one of the two issues, but the combination. It is (slightly) debatable whether the infantry should have spotted the tanks. But the buttoned up tanks in turn spotting them under the conditions present, and from the rear, spotting the infantry in the same game is not OK. One of the Panthers spots at 90 degrees right, one from the rear. Buttoned up in what looks like night or at least twilight.

I don't have a quick solution suggestion to fix the tank spotting, that would make things even more complicated. However, the infantry should have been subject to less random spotting. Making that one less complicated would lead to a better game. IMHO.

It really is short-range spotting (or lack thereof) that I experience and find off. Like tank1 spots tank2, but tank3 which is right between 1 and 2 is not spotted (and then hit by tank1's shot). The current complicated mechanism is going overboard. IMHO.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

3 hours ago, Artkin said:

get the whole randomness thing with CM, I've played a lot. It truly feels like the amount of randomness (Variance in the spotting) this game has is a bit too much.

Now that is a sentiment that I could probably agree with. 

The issue tends to be that in the immediate aftermath of the incident this is often put as 'CM is broken', I've posted comments like that myself in the past.