Is this an indicator of good cover or quantum mechanics in CMx2?

[markshot]

You know how the enemy keeps firing bursts and trees in front of your unit keep turning into wood chips and ground 60M ahead keeps sending up geysers of dirt.

Does this mean that although scary that they have found good cover?

or

Does it mean that most incoming fire will strike the trees, but given sufficient time a round is going to find a pixel troopen?

Thanks.

[chuckdyke]

HE gets rid of your troops and rifle and mg fire gives them some cover but eventually the roll of the dice goes against you. That is my experience. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by chuckdyke

[markshot]

Okay.  Thanks.

I pulled them out, since the LOS tool lied to me and I could not get LOS on what I wanted.

I will have to continue to work the problem of taking the AAA emplacement.

---

Was it you or Erwin who posted the training video on indirect HMG fire the other day?  I know that is not modeled in CMx2.  What about the beaten zone and plunging fire?

[chuckdyke]

19 minutes ago, markshot said:

indirect HMG fire the other day

I posted last Friday about the MG42 I used the Scenario Gog and Magog. From a Tripod the MG 42 firing from 1 km should have the effect of plunging fire on its target of 80⁰. I don't think CM is doing this and I consulted the trajectory tables for this weapon. In RL the weapon had an indirect firing system like the Vickers and the Browning. A long-beaten zone is effected by grazing fire he aims from the tripod waist high recommended distance 500-1000 meters. In HMG mode comes directly under the command of the company. For shorter distances better to use it in the LMG mode. We don't have the commands to use these tactics unfortunately as half the time you get a No-LOS pop up. 

[domfluff]

1 hour ago, markshot said:

You know how the enemy keeps firing bursts and trees in front of your unit keep turning into wood chips and ground 60M ahead keeps sending up geysers of dirt.

Does this mean that although scary that they have found good cover?

Does it mean that most incoming fire will strike the trees, but given sufficient time a round is going to find a pixel troopen

Cover is always a percentage game. If you can be seen, you can be killed. Good cover shifts the odds towards your favour, but the goal remains identical - you win a firefight by gaining and maintaining fire superiority. If they're cowering and you're not, it doesn't matter what kind of cover either of you are in, and all cover really does, conceptually, is passively limit the incoming fire, to an extent.

So if the above situation is happening, and you're taking no action to develop the situation to *stop* the incoming fire, then you will eventually all die.
 

51 minutes ago, markshot said:

I pulled them out, since the LOS tool lied to me and I could not get LOS on what I wanted.

The LOS tool relies on the underlying grid. It'll give you the LOS from that square to any other square, at one of five different heights. It's not what the actual soldiers use to plot a firing solution (that's derived from the individual's eyes), so it's never going to precisely match up.
 

55 minutes ago, markshot said:

Was it you or Erwin who posted the training video on indirect HMG fire the other day?  I know that is not modeled in CMx2.  What about the beaten zone and plunging fire?

Indirect MG fire is a bit suspect in general, so I'm not surprised it's not included in CM. The other two concepts you mentioned are the result of physically modelling MG fire, so CM models those just fine.

[womble]

9 hours ago, markshot said:

What about the beaten zone and plunging fire?

You can, sometimes, arrange "grazing fire" over a crest. Bullet trajectories are modelled so if an area fire at a point just before a crest is plotted, "high misses" will pass the crest, some of them close to the ground, and, depending on topology, you might have a beaten zone in what would otherwise be dead ground. Mostly achieved by serendipity, though, IME.

[womble]

Oh, one indicator of good cover (not quantum mechanics  ) is when you see "bullet tracers" passing right through your pTruppen's pixels without causing them harm. Cover, AIUI, gives a "saving throw" to the little guys, and good, solid cover can see that saving throw be quite high, even if the round apparently penetrates it and the tender bodily particles of your pTruppe. If they survive several "hits", they're in good cover.

[Holman]

2 hours ago, womble said:

Oh, one indicator of good cover (not quantum mechanics  ) is when you see "bullet tracers" passing right through your pTruppen's pixels without causing them harm. Cover, AIUI, gives a "saving throw" to the little guys, and good, solid cover can see that saving throw be quite high, even if the round apparently penetrates it and the tender bodily particles of your pTruppe. If they survive several "hits", they're in good cover.

Plus, the CMx2 graphics engine doesn't present every twitch and squirm of an individual soldier. Someone ducking at the right time or pressing themselves that much further into the dirt can save them even if the computer doesn't show it.

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, womble said:

grazing fire" over a crest.

Really? For example, FM 23-65 Chptr 6 Combat Techniques of Fire (globalsecurity.org)

(1) Plunging fire. Fire in which the angle of fall of the rounds (with reference to the slope of the ground) is such that the danger space is confined to the beaten zone, and the length of the beaten zone is materially shortened. Plunging fire is obtained when firing from high ground to low ground, when firing from low ground to high ground, and when firing at long ranges.

(2) Grazing fire. Grazing fire is fire in which the center of the cone of fire does not rise more than one meter above the ground. When firing over level or uniformly sloping terrain, the maximum extent of grazing fire obtainable is about 700 meters.

[markshot]

Womble and Holman, I knew CMx2 would prove Quantum Mechanics.  Knowing where a bullet is means we can not know what affect it is actually having.

And despite "Total Defeat" in some universe, I won!

Only, my watching the movies causes the wave function to collapse and soldiers actually get hit.  This is a lot more interesting than relative spotting.

Cool!!!

[StieliAlpha]

10 hours ago, markshot said:

Womble and Holman, I knew CMx2 would prove Quantum Mechanics.  Knowing where a bullet is means we can not know what affect it is actually having.

But you forgot the „ Heisenberg‘s uncertainty compensator“, developed in Star Trek, to make „beaming“ possible.

In that sense: Beam me up, Scotty.

 

[Bulletpoint]

19 hours ago, womble said:

Oh, one indicator of good cover (not quantum mechanics  ) is when you see "bullet tracers" passing right through your pTruppen's pixels without causing them harm. Cover, AIUI, gives a "saving throw" to the little guys, and good, solid cover can see that saving throw be quite high, even if the round apparently penetrates it and the tender bodily particles of your pTruppe. If they survive several "hits", they're in good cover.

I think that only goes for truppen in buildings. Outside, you see the effect of cover as the bullet stopping when it hits a low wall, a tree, or a hedge.

Be as it may, I've seen a pixeltrooper survive a full burst of MP40 straight through the stomach, as he was walking on a road, and my firing squad was in a building 10m away. So either there's a pretty high basic savings throw, or the graphics just don't match what's actually going on.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Bulletpoint

[womble]

1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said:

I think that only goes for truppen in buildings. Outside, you see the effect of cover as the bullet stopping when it hits a low wall, a tree, or a hedge.

Be as it may, I've seen a pixeltrooper survive a full burst of MP40 straight through the stomach, as he was walking on a road, and my firing squad was in a building 10m away. So either there's a pretty high basic savings throw, or the graphics just don't match what's actually going on.

There is, I believe, a saving throw made for every bullet*/bullet-sponge interaction. AIUI, the experience level of the target modifies their chance of "not being in the way of the lead". But even if there's a very low chance of making the save, sometimes a pTruppe will (same as if there's a vanishingly small chance of spotting...). If it happened regualarly, you could extrapolate to a high base chance of saving, but I don't think it really does. Most of the time, if a bullet trace hits the pixels of a pTruppe upright in the open, they're going to be wounded/casualty/outright dead, even if they're Elite.

You do also see the effect of bullets bouncing off buildings... I don't know how penetration is adjudicated; it might just be parallax effects sometimes and the rounds are coming in through apertures (but the building still applies a cover value to the occupying troops).

[chuckdyke]

The trouble to do grazing fire in this game. When you plot a LOF you plot on a tile. The machine-gunner aims to shoot waist high and get the effect of a beaten zone along the long axis of an attack. The only way we can do this is by eyeballing the area and hope the TacAI is doing the right thing.