FM Company Ops with M-113?

[FogForever]

Anyone know a good source for company operations with the M-113 as APC?  

[The_Capt]

3 minutes ago, FogForever said:

Anyone know a good source for company operations with the M-113 as APC?  

A good one on Coy Teams from the period.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=My8-u2rYNVoC&pg=PP1&lpg=PP1&dq=tank+and+mechanized+company+team+fm+1977&source=bl&ots=qqIQKfV9MT&sig=ACfU3U00aPRhU6AIK2f45OySHMo3SQX7Xw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjkj9nanKnwAhV2Ap0JHeqIBQ0Q6AEwEXoECAgQAw#v=onepage&q=tank and mechanized company team fm 1977&f=false

 

[domfluff]

The 1977 FM 71-1 linked above is pretty much the best "how to play the NTC campaign" guide there is (among others). It's pretty great, and immediately applicable.

[FogForever]

Thanks.  I am about to play Bauersdorf.   So I am trying to figure out what to do with a bunch of .50 cal M-113s APCs when according to the briefing, I about to be attacked by a mass armor formation.  I suspect keeping them out of the way is their best use.

[The_Capt]

6 minutes ago, FogForever said:

Thanks.  I am about to play Bauersdorf.   So I am trying to figure out what to do with a bunch of .50 cal M-113s APCs when according to the briefing, I about to be attacked by a mass armor formation.  I suspect keeping them out of the way is their best use.

So the ol "Ma Deuce" is really effective against BMPs at close range, so I use M113s as a local reserve within a company or platoon.  Only pulling them up when the assault is right on top of my positions.

[domfluff]

One of the curious things about that field manual is how much it emphasises fighting from the M113. Mobility is a huge part of active defence, so there is some logic to that, but it's probably always a suspect idea in Cold War.

[FogForever]

The .50 MG is nice but the gunner is a bit exposed and the vehicle itself is so easily knocked out.  The approaching task force has at least 2 tank companies plus attached infantry.  In a day battle, I would assume the attack leads with tanks and I have TOWs and Dragons to confront the tank threat.  However it is a night battle.  I don't know Soviet night doctrine but I wouldn't be surprised to see them leading with infantry.  Either way, as soon as 20+ tanks show up, the .50 cal M-113s become nothing but targets.  So my thoughts are the M-113s need to be safely tucked away as soon as the tank threat is identified.  Once the tank threat is neutralized, then the .50 M-113s can re-emerge.  

[Ryujin]

1 hour ago, domfluff said:

One of the curious things about that field manual is how much it emphasises fighting from the M113. Mobility is a huge part of active defence, so there is some logic to that, but it's probably always a suspect idea in Cold War.

Also keep in mind that CM maps are still pretty small and unit dense, so you're generally getting a more narrow set of situations not suited to lots of driving around in your M113. 

[domfluff]

A point I'm actually going to contest a little - especially in Cold War, which has plenty of multi-km maps, and plenty of ATGMs and armour which can't reach across the entire map, there's plenty of room for mounted manoeuvre - indeed, this is sometimes really important.

It's true that there are examples where that is the case, but it's definitely less true for CW than the other modern titles.

 

[FogForever]

The Bauerdorf map is around 1600x1100.  However it is night time and maybe with shorter sighting distances I can do some maneuver which I couldn't do in daytime.   The enemy force is a reserve unit.  So I am guessing T-62s or T-55s.  Unfortunately nothing mentioned in the manual about the night vision capabilities of either.  I guess time will tell.  

[Ryujin]

30 minutes ago, domfluff said:

A point I'm actually going to contest a little - especially in Cold War, which has plenty of multi-km maps, and plenty of ATGMs and armour which can't reach across the entire map, there's plenty of room for mounted manoeuvre - indeed, this is sometimes really important.

It's true that there are examples where that is the case, but it's definitely less true for CW than the other modern titles.

 

I completely agree with that, the maps are larger for sure. But CM still inherently operates on a smaller scale and generally focuses on a specific point in the battle where there's an attack and both sides fight it out. The size of CMCW maps helps for cold war battles, but even the big ones are still on the smaller side for mechanized battles. 

For example in something like Steel Beasts I'd tend to keep my infantry mounted a lot more as you can end up doing maneuvers across what would be entire CMCW maps to position for fights and have to cover a lot more ground in those fights. So you'd spend more time mounted vs dismounted in the actual engagement. 

CMCW isn't wrong, but all of the battles are going to be focused on a bit more restricted settings where you're directly being attacked so fighting mounted is going to be a bit less necessary/practical where as the manual is going to cover a wider range of situations so it'll get a bit more emphasis. You're not going to be doing a lot big multi-km moves to get your reserves to cut off an attacking force or defend in depth in CM. 

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Ryujin
quoted for clarity

[Green Clutch]

I had luck in Brauersdorf setting up my M113s in keyhole positions among the buildings that the Soviets revealed at the last minute. The .50 cals could open up on close range targets and the other Russian units couldn't support whatever was getting ripped up. My observation is this game and others is that if an M113 exposes itself at range, it's toast.

My run-through of Brauersdorf was challenging, but I managed to pull out the win. I did observe that the map chops up the Soviet approach into 3 lanes that can't really support each other while the Americans can benefit from interior lines of support. That was the key to my success, at least.

[FogForever]

Yes, I noticed the channeled movement and choke points as well.  Bauerdorf looks like a pretty good defensive position except it is in a bowl.  But I think the bowl favors the US far more than the Soviets.  And yes, I think you are going to find my M-113s tucked away behind and between houses, dips in the ground and trees ready to pounce with their little slivers of LOS ... everywhere but in the open.

[Green Clutch]

12 minutes ago, FogForever said:

Bauerdorf looks like a pretty good defensive position except it is in a bowl.  But I think the bowl favors the US far more than the Soviets.  

Getting some eyes up in to the woods on the central ridge so you can look in to the middle of that big U-shaped forest was also very important.

[FogForever]

Yes, I may use my whole first infantry platoon for OPs, delaying points and ambushes.   The other two platoons as strongpoints.   I wonder if this is one of those scenarios with multiple AI strategies.  

Edited May 11, 2021 by FogForever

[FogForever]

Just did a search, looks like we don't get star shells.  That is a shame.

Edited May 11, 2021 by FogForever

[FogForever]

Ummm...I didn't realize the M-113 was amphibious.  That is a nice feature.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

1 hour ago, FogForever said:

Ummm...I didn't realize the M-113 was amphibious.  That is a nice feature.

Surprisingly little that rolling box couldn't do.

[domfluff]

1 minute ago, Vergeltungswaffe said:

Surprisingly little that rolling box couldn't do.

Aerogavin is the new Schwimmwagen, just give it time.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

1 minute ago, domfluff said:

Aerogavin is the new Schwimmwagen, just give it time.

Indeed!

[The_Capt]

Check this out:

 

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Only had time to skim it so far, but that is cool, and by cool, I mean totally sweet.

[FogForever]

It turns out I had the M-113A2 in the Bauerdorf scenario.  It has a cocoon of shields around the gunner.  So I was able to use several M-113s to hit infantry assembly areas through key hole slots between buildings.  That .50 cal is devastating if you get LOS from a covered position and the shields around the gunner allows him to blast away with minimal risk from return small arms fire.   I found the M-113A2 very useful in the Bauerdorf scenario.  I didn't use all of them but even a few made a substantial contribution to the defense and I didn't lose one.  So happy with the M-113A2.

[Thomm]

The biggest mistake I made with my M-113s in 'Bauersdorf' was to position them along with their platoon between the foxholes in the woods at the center of the map. There, they did little damage, but were shot up from behind by one of the very few BMPs that managed to break through to the village.

Other then that, they served me well as battlefield taxis.

Best regards,
Thomm

[FogForever]

I had two platoons in town with their M-113s tucked away and one platoon on the left with their M-113s hidden away in the woods.  I used some of the M-113s as fire support in both areas when I felt I could use them with minimal risk.  That stretch of woods you are talking about, I put a TRP on it and a FO.  I used the FO to infiltrate into the woods on the side of the plateau and used them as a listening post.  The FO had a radio which makes them useful for passing info along about what was going on up there.   I had considered using a dragon there as a listening post and ambush unit but they lacked a radio.   That was a fun scenario.