SS are overpriced hamsters!

[OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!]

I played a PBEM a few days ago where my SS troops panicked, broke, routed, died and generally behaved very badly against some British glider troops. A thirty turn PBEM was over in 8 moves. Well, I thought, it can happen.

**Please note: The fact that it happened during a PBEM was no doubt due to the disparity between the skills of my opponent and myself. My troops were out-gunned, out-maneouvred, out-fought and I was obviously out-generaled. No hamsters were harmed in the editing of this post.**

Now I play a game against the AI, a Quick Battle with very limited visibilty. My "more expensive than Wermacht" veteran SS troops are up against the Amis. First, a PSW234/3 armoured car stumbles across a lone Amis infantry squad. What do the "men of steel" do? Fire a burst at the Amis, who do not return fire, then *abandon* their armoured car!! The crew starts firing pistols at the Amis, who return fire from about 20 meters away. Three of my SS Hamster-men immediately become casualties, and the fourth falls down "shaken".

Meanwhile, a veteran SS Panzershrek hamster-team hiding by a road, have a Sherman appear right in front of them, flank on. "Kamerad! Kamerad!" they cry, and run off in panic. No shooting exchanged, but the hand-picked, veteran Waffen SS lads fill their pants and bolt.

I could go on with other examples but I won't, cos it upsets me. I could have press-ganged a bunch of Girl Scouts from a pyjama party and gotten a more aggressive showing.

Oh, I did wonder if being under command made a difference to the performance of the glorious SS gerbil pups. A Platoon Leader team answered that when they lost command of their own bodily functions at the first sight of American troops and abandoned their men (sorry, hamsters).

If I spend my points on Volkstrum conscripts I might expect this behaviour. But to pay premium points for a gaggle of trouser-wetting hamster rumps is rather galling.

*whine mode off*

OGSF

[This message has been edited by OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer! (edited 07-17-2000).]

[Supertanker]

I rarely play as the Germans, and never as the SS, but I did kill a big pile of them in an unnamed scenario last night (408 casualties, and 99 captured). They surprised me a couple of times by regrouping and attacking again long after I would expect regular troops to have run for the hills. Even under fire by three kinds of artillery and more than 5 tanks, they nearly broke through my right flank. It cost them dearly, but they kept the pressure on, and only one soldier surrendered before the entire side gave up. Maybe it is like the pillboxes, where they seem better when the AI is controlling them?

[Guest herbjorn]

What is the best squad in terms of firepower, (still waiting for the full version to arrive)

Is there a wehrmacht/ss squad which is only equipped with mp44?

[Monkeybutt]

If you want some real fun,try mounting an attack with conscript Volksstrum.One shot and they wet their pants and run or surrender.

-Monkeybutt

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The Combat Mission Scenario Dump! http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/3805/Cm.html

[Lurker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Monkeybutt:

If you want some real fun,try mounting an attack with conscript Volksstrum.One shot and they wet their pants and run or surrender.

-Monkeybutt

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah yes, one shot and they run. The question is do you have enough shots to get all of them...

I've learned to hate the Volksturm for exactly that reason.

-Lurker

[Guest herbjorn]

Hello, anybody with the full-version!!! What infantry squad is the most powerful?

Also, is there a pure MP44 squad?

[OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!]

Dabnabidation!! Same game, I just had a PSW234/3 fire on an Amis infantry squad. The infantry turned and ran away, as far away as tehy could get by the end of the turn. And what does the crew of the PSW234/3 do? They bail out and abandon the vehicle!! Maybe there is more going on than I can see because of the LOS (it's limited to about 27 meters due to a foggy night).

You don't route an enemy squad, and *then* abandon your armoured vehicle!! Why would you do that??? Aaaarrggghhh!!!

OGSF

[Guest Germanboy]

Ask Berli what he thinks about the Waffel-siSSies and their performance at night. They seem to be prone to surrendering when someone yells 'Boo' at them.

Now that you say it, maybe an issue of night-time combat? Or maybe they are just a bunch of girly-bloused sissy-wusses? Anyone played the Waffel-SS during the day care to comment?

Yes there are pure SMG squads in the game (Nov.44 Volksgrenadier SMG 8xSMG; Volksgrenadier Fusilier SMG 9xSMG - there may be more). As for which ones are the best: what do you want to use them for.

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Andreas

[This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 07-15-2000).]

[OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!:

Maybe there is more going on than I can see because of the LOS (it's limited to about 27 meters due to a foggy night

OGSF<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops! That is exactly what is going on. The visibility is so poor, there was another Amis infantry squad lurking nearby taking pot shots at the PSW234.

STILL, it's just not good enough!!

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> STILL, it's just not good enough!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OGSF - just play the Allies and you are going to love it. I know I did when Berli's HT crews jumped out of their HTs as soon as infantry came close to them.

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Andreas

[TeAcH]

I agree. Seems like the SS troops needs a once over at least. See if all is in order.

TeAcH

[Wolfe]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>First, a PSW234/3 armoured car stumbles across a lone Amis infantry squad. What do the "men of steel" do? Fire a burst at the Amis, who do not return fire, then *abandon* their armoured car!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure there wasn't a .50 cal around? I lost a Puma to a M3A1 HT in one game (side armor shot). The .50 can take out German HTs with aplomb. A penetration chart:

http://www.bigtimesoftware.com/images/mgvsht.jpg

The Puma has the same amount of side armor as the HTs, but it's at a lesser angle, so is more vulnerable than the HTs. And your armored car is even worse!

Side armor (Turret, Upper Hull, Lower Hull):

HT 250 n/a, 8@35, 8@35

HT 251 n/a, 8@35, 8@35

Puma 10@25, 8@30, 8@30

A. Car 8@40, 8@25, 8@35

Just a thought.

- Chris

[thomasj]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

OGSF - just play the Allies and you are going to love it. I know I did when Berli's HT crews jumped out of their HTs as soon as infantry came close to them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would agree with you, except this game is supposed to be as realistic as possible and the German SS wern't the sissies that I am hearing about here. Don't have the full game yet*SIGH!*, but I hope this is just a one time happening and not the norm, and if it is, then it should be looked into for most of the SS were battle hardened veterans.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thomasj:

[snip]for most of the SS were battle hardened veterans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am quite sure I would not agree with that statement, and I am sure a lot of others here would not either (case in point, 12th SS, and AFAIK 17th SS). Fanatical yes, wasteful attack-style yes, but battle-hardened veterans they were not.

But quite apart from that I think I would be interested in hearing an official BTS reasoning for it, too, if it turns out that this is a repeat problem. Berli and I played a meeting engagement set at night, IIRC both sides veterans, and the only morale problem I had was with a Platoon HQ that broke after the first shots were fired. His men surrendered and abandoned as if the war was over the next day. But I think a lot more games are in order before we draw conclusions. Could just be the odd ones out.

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Andreas

[Mark IV]

Loved the hamster theme. Try a Wespe- crew scatters like cockroaches at the first sign of light, with a sprinkle of infantry squad fire at 500m+ (time to Abandon: 1 second. Twice.). They are true one-shot wonders.

To answer herbjorn: The best I could find in Dec. '44 was a Wehrmacht Sturmgruppe, with 7 K98s, 3 MP44s, and SMG, and 2 LMGs.

SS Motorized Inf. had 4 K98, 3 MP44, 1 SMG, and 2 LMG.

SS Panzergrenadier had 2 K98, 3 MP44, 1 SMG, and 2 LMG.

BTW, I did not have a big problem with the Wespe performance in terms of realism. Some wargames allow ridiculously great involvements of heavy artillery in direct fire in the front lines, but AFAIK this was a rare exception to the norm. I do think they should have stuck to their gun under the relatively insignificant circumstances.

[This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 07-15-2000).]

[thomasj]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

{SNIP}

Fanatical yes, wasteful attack-style yes, but battle-hardened veterans they were not.

{SNIP}

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, I do not have my pre-order copies yet to see this myslef and what the cost differances are, but why would the SS units cost more if they were not Veterans?

I may be incorrect and am prepared to be educated, but most of the SS in the early stages of the war *During and Right after Operation Over Lord* were indeed veterans of one conflict/operation/invasion etc, or another. Which is the timeline we are to be playing in yes? In the BIG picture of the German Divisions only a small percentage had not seen combat by 1941.

My argument would go the other way as well if it were concerning Veteran AMIS forces around the late 1942 to 1945 timeline as well.

I do however wholeheartedly agree that BTSs input on these happeings is most welcome.

"A name alone doth not make a man, a real man makes a name for himself!"

[Commissar]

I play the SS all the time. I have not experienced what you are describing. When I play, the SS are pretty good although I am not sure how much better they are compared to other troops in the game. The best troops in the world will not make a difference if your plan is seriously flawed. Do other troops fight better or worst?

[OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer!]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Now that you say it, maybe an issue of night-time combat? Or maybe they are just a bunch of girly-bloused sissy-wusses? Anyone played the Waffel-SS during the day care to comment?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Should have been on the Waffen SS recruiting application form: Q4. Are you afraid of the dark?

The first time my Waffle hamSSters got a drubbing in 8 moves was a daytime meeting engagement in a town. They would shout "Mein Bein!" "Mein Bein!" and then lay down on their backs, never to rise again. A right bunch of Big Girls Blouses.

So much for being as hard as Krupp Steel. I will be sticking to Wermacht in future, unless there is some sort of spine stiffening moral tweak in 1.03/1.04.

It got to the point I *wanted* the Allies to shoot the gutless weasel bladders to shut them up.

OGSF

I guess it *could* have been my awful gameplay. Perhaps I should have just avoided any contact with the enemy completely. That would have kept the panic-stricken routes to a dull roar. :^)

[This message has been edited by OberGrupenStompinFeuhrer! (edited 07-15-2000).]

[guachi]

While there are no squads equipped solely with MP44s, there are two squad types equipped solely with MP40s - the VG SMG squad (8 SMGs) and the Fusilier SMG squad (9 SMGs.

Jason

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

I find that infantry are happiest, and survive best when strolling into the combat zone after heavy bombardment, and shooting the wounded survivors as they walk by.

They seem to be the least happy when you make them "clear that building" or "take that hill". I have NEVER heard so much grumbling as when I sent my squads to close assault a Panther.... Bunch of freaking ingrates....

[dumbo]

This is weird as I have never expereinced this sort of infantry panic you describe.

I mainly play the brits and the Infantry very rarely turn tail and run (in fact I have only seen it with very heavy casualties). I do however always make sure I have effective leader use and have my higher commander running to and from the platoons to give them a moral top up if needed.

Possibly your squads were left without leader support?

Just a thought

_dumbo

[Guest grunto]

i guess you didn't have ol' sepp dietrich there to rally your troops =belly laugh=

andy

[Degrees of Frost]

quoting thomasj here:

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I may be incorrect and am prepared to be educated, but most of the SS in the early stages of the war *During and Right after Operation Over Lord* were indeed veterans of one conflict/operation/invasion etc, or another. Which is the timeline we are to be playing in yes? In the BIG picture of the German Divisions only a small percentage had not seen combat by 1941.

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Weren't experienced SS troops getting a little thin on the ground by late '44.

Squads and vehicle crews were increasingly being made up of children - hardly veterans in any sense of the word.

Sure all divisions may have seen combat but certainly not all the frontline troops !

[von Lucke]

Ya, I've noticed a rather annoying tendency for German HT/AC crews to abandon ship at the slightest provocation. Allied crews are only slightly better --- which isn't saying much.

[KiwiJoe]

Well Ive played a few games and I like the brits quite a bit. They are cheap and you get a PAIT team and 2 inch motar for support as well. Their overall firepower is quite low but they dont seem to run unless overwelmed.

US Paras arnt bad either. Quite expensive but they have awesome firepower, gammon bombs, and large supplies of rifle grenades.

The german infantry seems ok, but I have REAL trouble using fausts correctly and the low squad numbers means after the few hits they become quite ineffective. If I could rely on those panzerfaust 100's to fire more often I think they would be far more deadly.