Tank-Grogs: plz Identify!

[Lindan]

hello!

This is a picture from our recent trip to the sinsheim museum. we can't really say what vehicle it is. (it looks a bit like a marder and a bit like a wespe but the wheels don't seem right... well, we don't know!). But see for yourself.

Thanks.

------------------

visit lindan.panzershark.com

member of the Combat Mission webring

[Airborne]

I'd say its a Wespe--but the picture of one I have from DAS Reich shows 5 road wheels--not 4 as in your picture----interesting.....

------------------

Land Soft--Kill Quiet

[Blue Macs]

hmmm interesting. my best guess is that this has been modified very late or post war, late war the germans developed alot of SPs on old chassis for the save on metal, i saw one at the imperial war museum the other day that i had never heard of before. offhand i can only think of a couple of 4 road wheel chassis's. the PzKpfw 38 (t) was a captured czech tank and the chassis was used for vehicles like the hetzer and marder III, but your photo is not this i am sure as the 38 (t) chassis had a very low rear wheel, almost level with the road wheels, i have also seen some photos of marder II's on a four wheeled chassis. the top half certainly looks like the 105mm gun of the wespe tho, much bigger than the 75mm marders and not the big hummel gun.

so after all that i cant really help but like i say probablya a very late model or variant or possibly a mix and match of damaged vehicles

BM

------------------

"If you see a white plane it's American, if you see a black plane it's the RAF. If you see no plane at all it's the Luftwaffe." -German soldier, Western Front, 1944

[Tiger]

It's a wespe converted from a panzer 38 (t), a Czech built chassis. Intrestingly, this chassis was used as for the marder III as well. The marder 2 used the panzer II chasis.

The czech built panzer 35 (t) is the one with the low rear-road wheel.

-johnS

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 08-14-2000).]

[Fionn]

This is a VERY interesting picture and is one I'll add to my "funky restorations" folder .

It IS a Wespe on a 38t chassis BUT the 38t chassis has been INCORRECTLY restored . (This always makes pics like this prized for trivia purposes.... Hey, can anyone point out 3 errors with the La Gleize KT?.. It's actually pretty simple but virtually no-one cans ee them until they're pointed out.)

What gives it away is the presence of return rollers and the siting of the bogey wheels. The roadwheels are the confounding factor since they are actually not the correct roadwheels for a 38t.

Certainly they COULD be used in extremis but these aren't the roadwheels you'd see in all your books which is what is messing most people up.

So, apart from the roadwheels it is pretty much a stock Wespe.... Oh I happen to have some issues with one of the bogeys too but at least that's not as hugely out of proportion as the roadwheels.

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 08-14-2000).]

[Airborne]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Hey, can anyone point out 3 errors with the La Gleize KT?.. It's actually pretty simple but virtually no-one cans ee them until they're pointed out.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fionn,

I'm game, but where can I find a picture of it?????? Got a link???

(Edit) I just ran across a photo of a knocked out King Tiger at La Glieze. It had at least 6 bazooka dings in it.. Is this the vehicle they restored? Unfortunately, it is a closeup of the front--being inspect by 82nd Paras..

Chris

------------------

Land Soft--Kill Quiet

[This message has been edited by Airborne (edited 08-14-2000).]

[Lindan]

Thanks for your replies. We didn't think about a faulty restoration. (And I always believed this impossible in a vaunted German museum. I'm shocked! )

So we will just call it a Wespe.

More cool pictures coming soon...

(on a new site, but it's not ready yet)

------------------

visit lindan.panzershark.com

member of the Combat Mission webring

[Blue Macs]

Tiger, check out your 38 (t) chassis's. both hetzer and Marder III have them, both have low rear wheel. having read Fionns post i think i have to agree, this is a 38 (t) but the road wheels are far too small making the rear wheel look much higher than it should be. definitely a cool photo

BM

------------------

"If you see a white plane it's American, if you see a black plane it's the RAF. If you see no plane at all it's the Luftwaffe." -German soldier, Western Front, 1944

[Blue Macs]

i have a picture i found in a book of what is labelled as a Marder II but it is on a 4 wheeled chassis instead of the usual PzKpfw II chassis. it also appears to have had all of the upper armour removed leaving just the tiny rotating turret. i would like to put it on here but don't know how to if it is just on my hard drive and not on a website. any ideas

BM

------------------

"If you see a white plane it's American, if you see a black plane it's the RAF. If you see no plane at all it's the Luftwaffe." -German soldier, Western Front, 1944

[Fionn]

Airborne,

Umm, well, my scanner and I have a love hate relationship. It loves to be a bitch to configure and I hate it to death .

I'll include it in a quiz though so you'll get to answer the question for a cool prize .

Blue Mac,

Get some geocities space and then just upload the pic and link to it from the forum. That way we can view it.

[Måkjager]

Hi lads , well im gonna take a deep breath and wait for all the flak that is about to come my way ( mb ). This is a very interesting photo and as far as i can make out the vehicle consists of the rear fighting compartment of the Wespe and the hull/chassie/running gear and drivers compartment of a combination of the Soviet T60/T70 light tank series and not the Czech 38t chassie.The T60 has 4 road wheel stations and 3 return rollers, but it looks like that this vehicle is using the dish type road wheels found on the T70.It also seems to have lost one of its return rollers which may be due to repositioning or the use of a shortened T60/T70 chassie. The drivers visor is the same as that found on the T60 and if you look at the tracks you will see that they are pointed ( as found on the T60/70) and not at all like those that appeared on the38t chassie which were more square looking.I hope this might throw some light on the subject . ps how do i attach photos to this message ?? in case i have to back up what i have said .

ps ps Fionn , what photo of the La Gleize KT are you talking about..where can i find it ??And what about a pint on the Northside

If i am right about the above UFO does that make me a Grog.....and what is it ))

[Formerly Babra]

Makjager, email me the photo and I'll put it up.

------------------

Lucasta, when to France your man

Returns his fourth time, hating war,

Yet laughs as calmly as he can

And flings an oath, but says no more,

That is not courage, that’s not fear—

Lucasta he’s a Fusilier,

And his pride sends him here.

[Blue Macs]

hmmmm interesting, didn't even think of that. Babra can i email you my photey of the Marder aswell, i'd like people to have a look at it

BM

------------------

"If you see a white plane it's American, if you see a black plane it's the RAF. If you see no plane at all it's the Luftwaffe." -German soldier, Western Front, 1944

[Formerly Babra]

Bring it on.

------------------

Lucasta, when to France your man

Returns his fourth time, hating war,

Yet laughs as calmly as he can

And flings an oath, but says no more,

That is not courage, that’s not fear—

Lucasta he’s a Fusilier,

And his pride sends him here.

[Måkjager]

Blue Macs , i think that the photo that you have is of the Sdkfz 139 Marder III 7.62 cmPak 36®, this is based on the czech 38 t chassie and used captured Soviet 76mm A/T guns rechambered to take the Pak 40 75 mm ammo. The tiny turret that you talk about is the limited traverse gun shield that offered poor protection to its crew. As far as i can tell there were 5 versions of the Marder , 3 using the Czech chassie and 2 using the Pz II .

[Red Devils]

Look, now when I purchased this tank from you you said it was a Marder.

No I didn't!

Yes you did!

No I didn't!

[Mace]

Looking at it, I don't think it's based on a PzKpfw 38(t) chassis as per consensus as it appears to have torsion bar suspension rather than the springs that the 38(t) had.

Further, if you replaced the small bogies with the larger 38(t) ones you would get bogie overlap, which the 38(t) never had.

I'd have to go with the guess that it's based on a captured small Soviet AFV like the T50, T60 or T70.

Regardless, this sounds like a job for Steven Zologa!

Mace (who'll now make himself scarce before the flames start)

[Lutz]

I think that this is actually based on a postwar Hotchkiss TT6, probably modified to look like a Wespe for a movie.

For pictures take a look at

http://www.panzermuseum.com/halle1/tour__cargo.htm

for the 4 wheel version used here and

http://www.panzermuseum.com/halle1/tour__hotchkiss.htm

for a better side view of the 5 wheel version.

Lutz

[Fionn]

Damn, I didn't think of the obvious answers first . I just figured that if the roadwheels were wrong the various suspension issues could also be due to poor restoration.

Anyways, after having looked at it again and checking my T60 photos I'd agree its a bit of a bastardised T60 chassis.

The roadwheels are NOT correct for a T60 as Makjager stated and a roadwheel is missing (possibly poor lighting and/or poor restoration... I don't imagine that this was built as a hybrid chassis by the Soviets.). Still, it is a T60 chassis which has been restored using T70 components as far as I can see.

The problem is that once you start getting into the field of "incorrect restoration" it could be almost anything. It could be an RSO chassis with a fake superstructure or a T40 chassis etc etc etc.. So, most likely it is a T60 chassis with a few errors but it COULD be any of a half-dozen chassis incorrectly restored. (one reason I hate incorrect restorations)

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 08-15-2000).]

[The DesertFox]

Sorry guys,

I fear nobody has won a toaster with the replys yet [just kidding]

What you see above is indeed a Wespe, no question. The part in question is the suspension it was build on.

If you have a very close look at the suspension, you easily can find out, that this suspension does not seem to be a leafspring suspension. BUT all Pz35/38(t) suspensions including the Hetzer were leafspring suspensions. That clearly excludes the Pz35/38(t) chassis for me. Furthermore there is no single Pz35/38(t) conversion to Wespe documented. As far as I can say of course.

Now what´s with the PzII suspension ? The later [past 1938] suspensions wich were used for Wespe conversions were leafspring suspensions too and furthermore had 5 wheels.

OK and here comes my answer to this mystery:

The suspension is a PzII suspension, but what we have here is a) a torsion bar suspension and the exact suspension of the 1937 Krupp prototype for the PzII. You can have a look at the Chamberlain/Doyle/Jentz "Enzyclopedia of german tanks", there you will find a pic in the PzII section and of course in the PzI section, because that was the origin of the prototype.

Ah well, I finally found a pic at Achtung Panzer.

The Krupp PzKpfw I (LKA 1) prototype.

And Krupp's LKA II - Panzer II prototype:

Of course the best way to find the final proof [and if I´m right or wrong] is to ask the folks at Sinsheim about this very special Wespe. I´d furthermore be interested to know how much of these prototype suspensions were converted and how reliable their suspension was. AFAIK it was very unreliable, because in 1937/38 the development still was somehow in its infancy concerning this special suspension.

Hmmmm, but I have still the strange feeling that the Hotchkiss TT looks damn close as well. Especially the charakteristic triangular structure on the right front of this so called "Wespe". It can be coincidence...

Cheers

Helge

------------------

Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891

[This message has been edited by The DesertFox (edited 08-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by The DesertFox (edited 08-15-2000).]

[Mace]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

The problem is that once you start getting into the field of "incorrect restoration" it could be almost anything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regardless of it's accuracy, I sure would like a beastie like that in the back yard (but then again, my wife wouldn't so that's the end of that story)!

Mace

[Lindan]

Oh boy!

At least I'm satisfied that there is no simple "this is a Sturmspüle Sdkfz 69 you idiot!" answer to this question.

I'll mail the Sinsheim people and ask them. (good suggestion Helge )

IF I get a reply I'll post it here.

------------------

visit lindan.panzershark.com

member of the Combat Mission webring

[This message has been edited by Lindan (edited 08-15-2000).]

[Fionn]

Helge,

Look at the back of the chassis. The position of the wheel there simply isn't correct for a Pz II.

It IS however more correct for a T60 chassis.

Also check out the gaps in between the wheels. See the suspension portions visible there.. Very typical T60 chassis but not very typical Pz II chassis.

Of course we'd need a properly lit picture of the chassis to be precise but it really doesn't look like the 37 prototype's suspension to me. How do you explain the bogies placement too high up on the chassis?

[The DesertFox]

Fionn,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Helge,

Look at the back of the chassis. The position of the wheel there simply isn't correct for a Pz II.It IS however more correct for a T60 chassis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, that doesn´t exactly fit the picture of the PzII chassis (the prototype LKAII). But if you imagine a combination of the LKA II and the Ausf D/E suspension you pretty much get what you see in the above "Wespe". Of course I don´t have pictorial evidence so I have to make clear that this is just an educated guess, that such prototypes existed and were converted.

Here´s the Ausf. D/E

However coming to your T60 assumption:

We most certainly can agree that some elements of the T60 suspension can´t be found in the "Wespe" above: Spacing between the roadwheels, the missing 3rd bogie (sp?) wheel and last but not least the distance between the drive sprocket and the 1st roadwheel doesn´t seem to be right to me. Another point is that the T60 drivesprocket is much higher than it seems to me the case in this "Wespe". Certainly not a perfect fit either.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Also check out the gaps in between the wheels. See the suspension portions visible there.. Very typical T60 chassis but not very typical Pz II chassis.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That´s the ends of the "Schwingarme" which connect to the torsion bars. It´s the same for my guestimated Ausf.D/E suspension, but you can´t see them (the Schwingarm) because the roadwheels are much bigger in the original Ausf D/E than in this "Wespe". And you are correct in the T60 chassis you can see ´em but their distance is bigger as it is in this "Wespe".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Of course we'd need a properly lit picture of the chassis to be precise but it really doesn't look like the 37 prototype's suspension to me. How do you explain the bogies placement too high up on the chassis?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The bogies are strange too, but both for my LKA II example and for the T60. In the LKA II the bogies are deeper, no doubt, but they are aprox in the middle between the roadwheels, slightly less distant to the inner roadwheels. If we look at the T60, we see that the rearmost bogie would fit the picture but neither do the middle nor the front bogie wheel. Especially for the front bogie wheel it´s obvious that it is closer to the front roadwheel than being in the middle between them.

However all this is pure guesswork and we can´t have a close look at the "Wespe" in question. Neither possibility, nor PzII nor T60 fit the picture exactly. Now, if we really have an authentic WW2 vehicle here in front of us, I´d say its suspension has it´s origin in the PzII line.

But... BIG BUT, as I have mentioned above, there is one thing wrong with this "Wespe" and that is the triangular structure on the right front. This structure and the overall appearance of the vehicle itself make me think that we really can´t exclude a postwar "constructed" Wespe fake. Perhaps for a movie or whatever reason. If this is the case, I´m sure as hell that it is a Hotchkiss they took to construct it.

Helge

------------------

Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891

[Lindan]

We took a front photo of the Wespe too. I'll post it here this evening. I don't know if this will help though.

------------------

visit lindan.panzershark.com

member of the Combat Mission webring