"Out of the dust -finals"

[slysniper]

Where are each of you with Ozi and are you still getting turns sent, Walker brings up a good point, it might be time for me to just do a auto finish if you are close enough or I could step in as a proxy to get this thing rapped up. I will try to get Ozi and see if he is making efforts to finish this.

[slysniper]

At this time I am also interested if you like this scoring format and would like to see me hoist another tournament. With that, would you like to see me move over to CMBB or CMAK, or would you prefer to keep it CMBO.

Maybe you see something you think I should do differently, again this is the time to share your thoughts, before I proceed with placing my scoring system in stone.

[Walker]

For me, definitely BO!

And instead of a new tourney, I’d like to suggest that this tournament (which has been a superb source of enjoyment, thanks to the top-notch scenarios and some great opponents) continue, with those who are willing and able to play on. Using a knock-out system that incorporates the same scoring method. Top ranked vs bottom ranked. The movies of the semis and the final could be forwarded to all interested tourney players and commented on the BF board. The KO system would help move things along a lot faster too as each player would only have one game to play.

Chris

[slysniper]

I do not see how this scoring system would work very well in a knock out tourney. The only knock out tourney that seems even close to fare is the type that are QB's with both players given the same points and making it a meeting engagement. Even that is not fair depending on date of battle selected. Thus having a bunch of rules added to try to make it fare.

[Walker]

Hmm…my line of thinking is that if, say, 16 players play the *same* scenario in 8 knock-out battles the modifiers as applied in the first round of the tourney could be used to smooth out the results. But it’s quite possible that I’ve got it wrong somewhere, and that there’s a fatal flaw in my idea.

And something I forgot in my previous post: I think it’s great that you’re offering to host another tourney, whatever form it may take! Thanks !

Chris

[slysniper]

Hmm…my line of thinking is that if, say, 16 players play the *same* scenario in 8 knock-out battles the modifiers as applied in the first round of the tourney could be used to smooth out the results. But it’s quite possible that I’ve got it wrong somewhere, and that there’s a fatal flaw in my idea.

With 8 games it would be easy to take the best four players from each side because of the comparison, maybe it even works with only two matches, but the final match would have to be something else. Maybe replay a early match and use the adv, from them to judge the final match victory.

With even only 16 players, which we started with 14 with this one, it still takes 4 rounds, and though it might go faster, we would still be only in round three at the moment with only 4 players and a ways to go and only them enjoying it. I started this concept because everyone gets to play, and you can control the amount of games and give everyone plenty to play without overdoing it. For me I can sit down and do three games in a hour or less depending how many have movements for me to plot, I hardly ever see a PBEM return in less than a hour anyway, so I doubt doing only one game would help that much.

I also know some of these players might have 10 games going at the moment already. So trying to get someone that over commits themselfs to this game to turn moves around quickly is also impossible at times. All I can say is that I will not allow slow players into a next round or tournament, that is about the only thing I have come up with that makes sence.

I also have thought about a more competitive approach, basically running the match as I have, but then adding a round 3 with only the top 8 players and round 4 with only the top 4

players. Combining the score throughout. Just a thought, but now I would have to commit players to about six months of play and say about 12 games. For some that might be to much, I really dont know unless others comment.

[ December 27, 2005, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: slysniper ]

[Neil aka Major Tum]

Originally posted by slysniper:

Where are each of you with Ozi and are you still getting turns sent, Walker brings up a good point, it might be time for me to just do a auto finish if you are close enough or I could step in as a proxy to get this thing rapped up. I will try to get Ozi and see if he is making efforts to finish this.

Me and Ozi are on 29/35 and I would be happy to auto finish. I last heard from him a week or so ago and he said he was going off somewhere. Anyways, the only problem is I thought I have done really well in this scenario compare to my others...so am a little that we didnt finish

[slysniper]

I did not want to do this, but as of this time you can send your turns to me and I will finish the games you have with Ozi as a proxy. I have emailed you my home email address to where you can send your last turn.

Ozi has made no effort to come in on the deadline and at the moment he is not around home either, so lets just rap this up, It is time to pretend he has went down in battle and his subordinate is stepping in.

Slysniper

[Neil aka Major Tum]

OK Sent file

[slysniper]

I now am playing the last few turns against Neil and Walker. Miles has tried to send me files also but nothing is coming in on his emails, this is a new problem that I have never seen before. No attachment or message, what should I look at or have him look at.

[U8led]

Maybe have him zip the files if you have not tried that yet.

[K.A. Miles]

We've got it set now, I think. For some reason, Slysniper couldn't receive any of my files (zipped or non) at his home email address. They seem to send to his work address fine, so that's what we're doing. Shouldn't take too long, with just a few turns left to go.

[slysniper]

Walkers is done & Major Tums is only a turn away, I could have had this done if my Email problems would get solved with Miles, hopefully I can get the work email resolved on Tuesday.

[melb_will]

Hope that everyone had a good holiday. In melbourne it was 43 degrees at 6pm on New Years Eve which made the beers all the better.

As for the tourney, thank you again Slysniper and Kingfisher. I have thoroughly enjoyed. it.

Thoughts on the maps then.

Fear in the fog.

I thought that this was a great idea. However, the limits of the engine made it less fun than it could have been. The performance of elite troops under fire is clearly a game problem. For example in real life my crack platoon would realise that they could see each other and two squads would likely poor fire at the direction of the attack and the other squad could investigate.

In CM each squad sees itself in open ground and heads for cover. Leaving you at the end of the mintute to tell them what they do in RL.

Next, bumpy map. I thought that this was a great map, the overwhelming force that the germans had at the start was neatly counteracted by the limited avenues of attack. I'm not sure that I could have won an absolute victory on this map. I don't think that I would have had the forces to take the large vl.

In any case I had a little dig at it an lost three panthers and my infantry holding the small VL's got hammered by berts arty. All in all a good map interesting questions asked of the attacker. I think that it would have played very differently and prehaps better if there were 10 more moves. Ths would make it a rather long battle but more interesting. At the same time spread out the arrival of the attackers AFV's

Finally long map with guns

The setup on this map is what cost me. I couldn't believe that a defending force would not try to control the woods on the left so I sent a couple of forces in there and lost them in fairly short order.

Other than that I think that this map would benefit from some barbed wire. My opponents tatic in this map was urban renewal, he would move his AFV's just forward enough to destroy a building and so on step by step. This destroyed most of my infantry leaving the battle rather a foregone conclusion. barbed wire would encourage the defender to hide behind houses a bit more.

As for the reinforcements in this map I wasted a lot of them because I was in danger of being completely overun in the town. However, they did manage to even up the panthers that came down the left, with more time I may have been able to turn the battle with them.

I would love to hear other people's thoughts, or Sly and Kingfisher coming out to explain design decisons.

cheers

Will

Note Spelling has not been checked =)

[dinga44]

Hey all...one thought re Walkers idea of a knock out tourney and the problems associated with having a balanced game. Would it be possible (and I stress this is only a thought) that both players play the same game, as a defender and as an attacker at the same time. Effectively you would have two of the same game going at once. Or perhaps even between 3 players, playing as an attacker against one player while playing as the defender against the other player. Just a suggestion. Not sure how it would work after this, but there wouldn't need to be any modifications to the points. Sure, each player would know what they are up against and this may be an argument against doing this.

Re the games...I fully agree with Melb_will re the night game. As for the other two games, I thought they were two of the best games I've ever played. Thoroughly enjoyed them, especially the swampy marsh game. Only SMALL grumble in this one was I felt I had a little too much art (as a defender).

Hope everyone had a great new year...Melb_will we had a nice hot one up here in Canberra as well. I'm just hoping for a little rain

Cheers,

Dinga

[slysniper]

Finally long map with guns

The setup on this map is what cost me. I couldn't believe that a defending force would not try to control the woods on the left so I sent a couple of forces in there and lost them in fairly short order.

Other than that I think that this map would benefit from some barbed wire. My opponents tatic in this map was urban renewal, he would move his AFV's just forward enough to destroy a building and so on step by step. This destroyed most of my infantry leaving the battle rather a foregone conclusion. barbed wire would encourage the defender to hide behind houses a bit more.

As for the reinforcements in this map I wasted a lot of them because I was in danger of being completely overun in the town. However, they did manage to even up the panthers that came down the left, with more time I may have been able to turn the battle with them.

I would love to hear other people's thoughts, or Sly and Kingfisher coming out to explain design decisons

During playtest of Norrey, I felt the British had the advantage. So adding wire is a interesting thought but at the time would not have crossed my mind. Playtesting was normally showing 3-4 panzers being lost to the allied guns. The shermans were normally getting 5-6 Panzers, thus leaving 2-3 German tanks by the end of the match. Normally against 2-3 remaining Shermans. The Halftrack german infantry normally was not much of a impact, other than normally dieing.

[slysniper]

Thus the battle for the city was really normally being decided by the attack from the south and how that infantry did as to challenging for the heart of town and if the German armor could get up there also and support this effort. It also normally forced the Allied Shermans also to try to support the infantry in town. Most playtest were showing casualty points so high for the Germans that they did not have a chance unless they snatched and held the flags. Preventing them from moving freely through town would almost seal their doom.

[slysniper]

For the British to be successful, they needed guns placed all along their defensive line, held in hiding until good killing shots were seen. Which always became available because of the type of attack the germans must preform. The infantry needed to be commited enough to guard against any activity to the south from the German infantry, Normally German armor shooting bldgs down was not impacting this much.

[slysniper]

I see 4 options for how the Germans could attack Norrey in this map. One option that I do not know if anyone used is to move some of the armor units all the way over to the infantry attacking from the south by the eastern back road over the bridge they control. This added support would normally really help this German attack on town.

Another choice is for the Germans to move up on the North edge of the map along the tracks, I was surprised of how this option was normally a desaster for the germans.

[ January 02, 2006, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: slysniper ]

[slysniper]

I know that the Germans did well in most of the tournament battles, But I also know of the British victory that will be posted also. Anyway in my opinion at the moment, this battle can swing strong in either direction, depending of play or be a fight to the last turn for a win.

Play Balence is still fine in my Book.

Wire could be fun, but something else would have to go to make room for the impact in play.

[ozi_digger]

Apologies to everyone for missing turns over the hols.

If its any consolation I had a good time surfing and fishing :cool:

[slysniper]

Present standings are with one match still to finish

Walker 11.5 points

Miles 11 points

U8led 10 points

Bert 8 points

Dinga 44 7.5 points

Fiaros 7 points

Melb_will 5 points

Mikado 5 point

Gort 4 points

Warhammer 3 points

Major Tum 3 points

Ozi 3 points

[slysniper]

Round two results for 2 of the three scenario's

Match #4

Germans vs Americans

55/42 U8led vs fiaros

41/54 Walker vs K.A. Miles

40/58 melb_will vs Bertblitzkrieg

37/58 Warhammer vs Mikado

37/63 Ozi Digger vs Major Tum

22/78 Gort vs Dinga44

Germans

U8led 3 points, (1.5 point weak side) (.5 point upset)

Walker 2 points, (2.5 point upset)

Melb will 1 point

American

Dinga44 3points (.5 point upset)

Major Tum 2 points

Mikado 1 points

Match #5 Norrey

Germans vs Canadians

71/29 K.A. Miles vs U8led

70/30 BertBlitzkrieg vs Gort

58/42 Fiaros vs melb_will

58/42 Dinga44 vs Warhammer

41/50 Major Tum vs Mikado

10/90 Ozi Digger vs Walker

Germans

K.A. Miles 3 points

BertBlitzkrieg 2 points

Fiaros 1 point

Dinga44 1 point

Canadians

Walker 3 points (1 point weak side)

Mikado 2 points (1 point weak side)

Warhammer 1 point

Melb will 1 point

[slysniper]

Walker has made a major push to sit in the lead at the moment, Dinga has moved up but still needs the last match in to slide up furture.

This competition is still up in the air. Knowing the situation in the final battle, nothing is finalized yet.

At the moment, the scoring for the final scenario should look something like this, highest to lowest as shown without knowing where KA Miles will fit in.

Melb will

Dinga 44

Gort

Bert

Fiaros

Mikado

Walker

[Walker]

Then I might as well enjoy my 15 minutes of glory while I can...hey Keith you're doing this on purpose, right? Get that battle of yours done with !!