Leshawn Campell Posted January 1, 2000 Share Posted January 1, 2000 I am interesed in this game very much. Also, have downloaded y'alls demo of this here game. I likes it a lot. It's kickin. Big Time Software has been laying the cut straight to y'all that this game be the badest mo-fo wargame out there. Word UP!!! Ain't nobody made a game this phat since talonsoft's west front. That game be cool and all but Beyond Overlord takes the cake, yo. But, I wanna know if this here game incorporates any African Americans...during that there set up phase and I'd be looking for some black folk!!! I ain't see no black soldiers. What's up? Will the final game that is made have some brothers in it? I know the homies at Big Time gotta make somethin' like that. Thanks, -peace out, y'all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howardb Posted January 1, 2000 Share Posted January 1, 2000 Hah.... cool post Leshawn To tell you the truth you're the first African American I've ever seen interested in WW2 gaming ever, good to have you onboard (but then again I'm from Norway so what do I know). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Oberst Posted January 1, 2000 Share Posted January 1, 2000 How does BTS respond to this one without igniting anything?? No one on the forum, to my knowledge, will discount the contribution of any particular ethnic group to the war effort in WWII. Similarly, there is no particular represenation made graphically of any nationality or ethnic group. No distinctive features for German, Italian, Russian, English, Hispanic, African American or any other type of ancestry. In fact, search through the archives, and you'll find reference to some of the graphics looking like Vulcans from Star Trek fame... I think that BTS could just as well leave the graphics alone, and continue working on producing this most excellent game. My 2 cents. Herr Oberst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted January 1, 2000 Share Posted January 1, 2000 Actually, the American military was very hesitant in un-segregating their army during WWII. By the end it was a little more equal. There was only one African-American Division that I know to serve in WWII. It was stationed in Italy. There wasn't the mix that you see in Vietnam in existence in WWII. So, it is not the fault of CM for the lack of multiculturalism, but, rather the US military of the 1940's. There were minorities serving with the other nationalities. The French and British had colonial formations (only the French were in Western Europe 1944). It seems as if all of the military strides made during the American Civil War were lost by the 20th Century. [This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 01-01-100).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 This (desegregation of the armed forces) is what I wrote my undergrad thesis on. I learned a LOT while writing that paper, and came away with a greater respect for the African Americans who had to free themselves from their own nation's prejudice and BEFORE they could free other nations from war. Some of the accomplishments of African American soldiers: The 'Tuskegee Airmen' (99th, 100th, 301st and 302nd Fighter Squadrons) who flew bomber escort missions over Europe, amassing a list of medals and kills quite long (in fact, I read somewhere the the 99th NEVER lost a bomber they were escorting to enemy fighters) The 'RedBall Express' that kept the Allied drive into Europt going during the late summer and early fall was composed of mainly black drivers. These guys drove supply/fuel trucks from the ports to destinations all across France and back again nonstop. After the war, the US military was studying the effects of racial mixing in military units. From my research, the influence upon both black and white soldiers was overwhelmingly positive. Most soldiers, black and white both, interviewed for the studies declared that the military would benefit from racial desegregation. The military leaders dragged their feet until Truman signed 9981, declaring equality of treatment and opportunity in the military. (Truman himself was not entirely motivated by moral issues; fear of civil unrest by unhappy black Americans, combined with a realization that the US military was going to have to start getting bigger and better (rather than smaller and weaker) to stand against world communism) Again from my research, the effects of a declared policy of racial equality on the military were of a majority positive. HOWever, as Tom said, the fact was that front-line combat troops were overwhelmingly white. Also, as Oberst said, the generalized nature of the graphics obviates the depiction of specific people. And, as has been stated elsewhere, graphics can be altered by sufficiently-skilled people (i.e. not me) Although you can't alter the appearance of individual soldier-icons in units, you COULD change the appearance of a few different unit-types, and get something usable. DjB [This message has been edited by Doug Beman (edited 01-01-100).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 Uh guys... am I the only one to have suspicions that this post wasn't even written by a black student? Do you think it likely that a black fellow would come on here and post a message using such stereotypical language? Hehe, somehow I think not. I think someone is having a bit of fun with us. But, even if the post wasn't serious, to tackle the question at hand, there simply were any black combat units that I know of in this area of Europe. So this means there won't be any in CM, either. Now, if and when CM 5 comes out on the Korean war, then by that time I think there was some integration starting, at least in some units. But probably not widespread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 Welcome to the board Hey man - I dont think this is an issue that is really crucial to game development no offense intended. Not trying to belittle anyones efforts in WW2 in any way, but with all the other items still up for BTs to finish, I dont think we need a new one. As previoulsy stated above no independent races are specifically modelled as all do look like vulcans. To change the color on one human figure would change the colors on all, so to alter some to different pigmentation would affect the whole game Germans included, which would be unless im mistaken unrealistic. Basically you can go into paint shop and change the colors on the figures yourself - if i understood earlier posts correctly, that way you can change any graphical item in the game to suit your viewing pleasure. Hope this post remained inteh realms for polically correctness as it was intended to be so. ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader....out [This message has been edited by SS_PanzerLeader (edited 01-01-100).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leshawn Campell Posted January 2, 2000 Author Share Posted January 2, 2000 Hey, g....don't trip!!! I'm for real!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 Well, we have to take posts at face value, so will do so here. In fact, we have answered this question before. The graphics in CM are generalized. The same face texture is used for ALL human figures in CM, US and German alike. So we only get ONE color for the entire group of fighting men for all sides. Since about 99% were white (the US had some blacks at the front, but the Germans certainly didn't ). So the decision to have only a white face is a no brainer. BTW, there was a "negro" AT unit in the early part of the Bulge that actually had an operational effect on German planning. While all the white front line troops ran away, this one rear AT unit stayed and put up a Hell of a fight. IIRC the Germans were sent packing a number of times. It was cases like this that got even General Patton's attention. IIRC he was in favor of using "negro" troops in the front, while most senior commanders at the time were not. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leshawn Campell Posted January 2, 2000 Author Share Posted January 2, 2000 Hey man. That's all good. I'm cool. I know there weren't lots of brothers smackin 'round Europe in WWII. I just wanted to know if the dogs at Big Time were gonna have black folk in Beyond Overlord. That's cool. I'm good. Peace out, much love.. ~Leshawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pritzl Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>While all the white front line troops ran away, this one rear AT unit stayed and put up a Hell of a fight. IIRC the Germans were sent packing a number of times<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Actually, what about including this particular battle as a scenario? Since it was a such a rare event, as they were colored soldiers, there must be a comparetively large amount of information on the battle relative to most engagements of this size. ------------------ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kevi Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 - Not a completely unreasonable question. - The answer was very reasonable. - The only color I would protest is pink. I just dont like pink. - Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stabsfeldwebel Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 Unfortunently just like my killrings you'd have to change it in paintshop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 Eh, if it is politically correct to have statistically valid displays of ethnic troops in the game, then maybe we shouldn't have a wargame? After all, when we play the game, we might be induced to go out killing people in our workplaces, schools and so forth. And we might as well remove the swastikas from the game too. Said VERY tongue in cheek. Hell, I'm a member of a non visible minority and I milk it for all the $ I can. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWIIRulz Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 "But, even if the post wasn't serious, to tackle the question at hand, there simply were any black combat units that I know of in this area of Europe. So this means there won't be any in CM, either." Hey Lee you are actually wrong. There was a battalion of Black Soldiers in the initial assault on Omaha, I think it was the 320th Barrage Balloon Batallion. They brought in Barrage Ballons in LST's and LCI's to prevent strafing from planes. Also about 1,200 Black soldiers landed on Utah on D-Day most of them truck drivers. Some were on the Coast guard and drove Higgins boats to the shore. Also as I remember Eisenhower during the Bulge allowed the black truck drivers to volunteer for Combat infantry posts. And as I remember 5,000 did and were remarked on their excellent performance by a white Officer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 Hehe, I knew there was going to be some odd exception in there somewhere. Which is way I was careful to not make it an absolute statement. Still, given the extreme rarity of black soldiers being allowed to fight in frontline units, it wouldn't make any sense to have black figures in CM. When I made that statement I was referring to frontline combat troops deliberately engaging the Germans inland of the beaches. I guess those 5,000 truck drivers and that AT unit that Steve mentioned were the two exceptions to my statement (assuming there aren't any others). There almost always seems to be an exception to such broad statements. Mr. Campell, if you're for real, that's cool. I'm sure you'll understand my skepticism, though. In any case, welcome to the CM fan club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Pender Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 Hello Leshawn, I just read your post and please don't take this the wrong way but after reading what you wrote I was very suspect as to your true intentions. If you are African American and are truly interested in CM and WWII history welcome aboard. I am not trying to pass judgment or tell you how to speak but using terms like phat, mo-fo, likes, and I ain't seen no, leads to stereotypes that anyone proud of their heritage would be well aware of and I suspect try hard to dispel. As a college student I am sure you do not write like this when preparing work for school. Now If you are just trying to pull our leg then shame on you, I have served 11 yrs in the Coast Guard with many proud black men and woman who I am proud to call my friends and shipmates and as was said on a pervious post, African American representation on this forum is scarce. So in an attempt to defend them I will say stop what you are doing here and leave. So: A: If you are African American, I am only trying to impress upon you that by speaking in such a manner you only hurt the way you are perceived and you diminish the accomplishments of the proud people of your culture. I once had the opportunity/honor to be present when Gen Colin Powell was the Guest speaker at a commencement speech at a service academy. The General was the most impressive and articulate public speaker I have had the pleasure to witness. Please honor him as a great American and yourself and make the attempt to follow his example. B: If you are some sick minded person trying to stir some **** on this board I am making a stand, please leave. Again Leshawn my intention are good. My main concern is that someone was just trying to play a sick joke that quite frankly offended me. If I am wrong then please reply to my post and know that I apologize in advance if I offended you. I also apologize to anyone else that I may have offended. Take care John ps It was real hard to hit the send button on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 Oh geez, I was going to post a couple of hours ago, at Leshawn's last post, but I hesitated. **BTS** please close this thread before anyone gets offended, or says anything hostile. I am not a politically correct kinda guy, but to see how out of hand we can get around here just talking about a naverteidigungswaffeneinsturzendeneubaten, I 'd hate to see how things go with an ACTUAL hot topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 There were "black" soldiers in service of the US Army in the ETO. It is my understanding that the only front-line combat units manned by blacks were in Italy while blacks in France, Holland etc were sent to 2nd line combat units and supply columns. So, while 1% of units encountered by the Germans might have been black CM only has 1 texture set for faces so it is impossible to represent them. Actually having multi-racial squads would be the greatest ahistoricity. One other reason I wouldn't like to have black soldiers and faces put is that then people would end up calling for realistic German reactions to meeting black soldiers ( realistic reactions would involve the "no taking of prisoners" and "shooting of captured blacks" by certain subsections of the German armed forces and I think its all just something which is easier to avoid than tackle. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 In Burgett's "Seven Roads to Hell", his unit (from 101st) in Bastonge is set up near a negro artillery unit called the 969th Field Artillery battalion (155mm). he has high praise for their effective artillery support. Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 I'm just reading MacDonald's "Company Commander", the WWII classic written in 1947, long before PC-ness started the great historical rewrite. He mentions the negro platoon in F company, 23rd Infantry, 2ID, holding a road into the town of Hameln just across the Weser. A car load of German officers barreled into town, unaware that it had been captured, and was utterly destroyed by them. There were lots of little actions that remain undocumented as negro platoons accompanied white units on the front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 Someone has been reading "The Onion" IMHO. Check out the exploits of Herbert Kornfeld, Accounts Receivable Supervisor at Midstate Office Supply in The Onion (www.theonion.com). It's listed in the archives several times and is a brilliant satire. The language used by "Leshawn" matches to the actual spelling. Could I be wrong? Of course. Leshawn could be the real deal. But I doubt it. The Germans discriminated against the Jews (if the Holocast can be referred to merely as "discrimination") and lost the services of thousands of loyal and brave soldiers. The Americans discriminated against (among others) the African Americans and lost their most valuable service as well. But never forget, it didn't really matter in what role someone served in WWII, the fact that they served deserves our utmost respect and honor. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerLeader Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 "We took prisoners from the 827th US Armored Battalion, which consisted almost entirely of blacks. They told us their instructions were to shoot up or set on fire any house in which Germans -they said "Nazis" - were to be found." Hans von Luck, "Panzer Commander". This passage talks about the battle for the villages of Hatten-Rittershoffen in December 1944. Later on (couldn't find it in the text but I remember it, the image struck me) he describes the "negro" soldiers climbing on the roofs with knives in their mouths... BTW the battle ended in a bloody victory for the Germans, and was probably part of the Bulge offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta Charlie 228 Posted January 2, 2000 Share Posted January 2, 2000 Hey, wait a minute, what about the All-Nesei Japanese-American regimental combat units?? Harry Truman, who feared the Yellow Peril so much he had to drop two on 'em for good measure (hehe), had to commend them at the end of the war in a very public ceremony on the White House lawn for being the most decorated army unit to come out of that war. hehe, as any DS knows, the way to motivate people is to tell 'em they can't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leshawn Campell Posted January 2, 2000 Author Share Posted January 2, 2000 Damn......people be getting mad nasty up in here!! Chill. Ain't nobody gonna cap each other over no black folk in Beyond Overlord. It's all good. All y'all best be chilling and discussing what y'all like. This here game is fly. No doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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