Germans vs Allied in PBEM

[M. Bates]

After a few games of PBEM with Combat Mission, I have already decided that if I play an Attack game against someone, I will never allow my defending opponent to be the Germans.

The Germans are underpriced, probably by about 10% to 20% across the units, and the German player always gets away with a "multi service" force, whereas Allied players are advised not to do this as it is perceived "gamey". If you attack the Germans on an open, small hilled scenario, his tanks will spread your own armour across half of Northern Europe, and if you attack in heavily wooded areas, his machine gun squads will cut your infantry to pieces!

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"War is like the cinema. The best seats are at the back... the front is all flicker."

- Monte Cassino by Sven Hassel

[Wanderer]

M. Bates

The Germans are underpriced, probably by about 10% to 20%

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I agree. Whenever I play the gerries they always seem to have alot more infantry than me.

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"I love it, God help me I do love it so"

[Mark IV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

I have already decided that if I play an Attack game against someone, I will never allow my defending opponent to be the Germans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That kind of narrows it down, doesn't it?

You can't use the Allied tools the same ways as you would German tools, but that certainly doesn't mean they can't be successful in the attack. You DID buy arty, didn't you?

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You can't use the Allied tools the same ways as you would German tools<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well from what I have seen of Combat Mission, the Allies will have an equivalent for whatever the Germans have EXCEPT that the German medium and heavy tanks are much better if used with a modicum of common sense, and as a German player you get better value for your points.

If defending against a German player, the points value difference is not so bad, but it is especially noticeable if you are playing as Allies and attacking the German side. In this situation their tanks and tank hunters will knuckle down and stop just about anything. Their infantry anti tank teams are excellent, and their close range combat troops, once tucked away in foxholes in dense woods, are very very tough.

Just my opinion tho

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"War is like the cinema. The best seats are at the back... the front is all flicker."

- Monte Cassino by Sven Hassel

[Milt Smegma]

I agree,I find all the "Ronsons" to be a hellish price for something that is so high profile and burns soooo well

[freelancal]

I agree, M. Bates. It seems to me that every time I play a meeting engagement as the Allies, I am out gunned and out numbered. I've been challenged several times in the ladder system and nobody wants to play the Allies. The only way I've been able to win as the Allies is through extreme luck. As I see it, the only fair way to play it is to give the Allies at least a +25% advantage.

[Claymore]

Please see/read my thread regarding my ongoing game against Fionn.

There the map is 1400 x 2200m of farmland with small hills and light forest.

I'm doing fairly well as American 76mm Shermans against Fionns Uber-Panthers. So far I have a kill ratio of M4:PzV = 4:3

It doesn't do you stomach lining any great favours everytime you hit the GO button, but it is fun (of a sort)

Cheers

[Rocket Fodder]

Claymore,

Your game gives the allies 4500 points vs 3000 for the axis. I think the original poster was stating that given a somewhat even point spread and a dug in Axis defensive posistion, the Allies are walking into a meat grinder.

Regards

[This message has been edited by Rocket Fodder (edited 10-06-2000).]

[Jarmo]

Your game gives the allies 4500 points vs 3000 for the axis. I think the original poster was stating that given a somewhat even point spread and a dug in Axis defensive posistion, the Allies are walking into a meat grinder.

[Priest]

Artillery...Artillery...Artillery.

I don't care how dug in the enemy is a concentrated artillery strike will pin them or dislodge them. I am fighting a scenario now where I am using two American inf companies (regular) versus two defending reinforced pioneer companies and pounding them. They have had to spread out along a large area and I used an artillery barrage to in the beginning to atrrit them. Now I am isolating and destroying fragments. There is foxholes and heavy woods involved yet I have maintained my unit integrity losing very little in the process. As for the tank question I will quote my friend MiGo when he said that not once in a PBEM or Hotseat game has a Tiger ever seriously threatened his chances if succeeding. He uses almost exclusivley light armor and infantry and tons of arty. He is also playing opponents with 7-10 years of experience in WWII games. It is kinda like football you have to find the mismatch and exploit it. If you cannot go head to head then get tricky. Just my opinion, for I have yet to experience what M. Bates has.

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Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb

-Priest

[This message has been edited by Priest (edited 10-06-2000).]

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>He uses almost exclusivley light armor and infantry and tons of arty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this is what PBEM comes down to. the Allied player has to stretch his already unfair points to buy more artillery than the German player AND he has to use his brain to near Kasparov proportions to maneouver his feeble Allied tanks into flanking positions just to gain an EVEN chance of toasting the German armour!!

The real problem is this: the battles that happen in Combat Mission are, by and large, not historically accurate.

In reality, the Allies totally outnumbered the Germans in most battles.

In Combat Mission this is not the case, the Germans have better if not more varied equipment than the Allies, for the same points, AND the Germans are just as entitled to air support as the Allies.

In a meeting engagement I have just anhialated an Allied opponent for the loss of one light tank. In most planning phases I skim over my units and finish the plan in less time than it took to watch the film, and I still paste the Allies.

Ummmmmm What the Hell is going on?

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"War is like the cinema. The best seats are at the back... the front is all flicker."

- Monte Cassino by Sven Hassel

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M. Bates:

The real problem is this: the battles that happen in Combat Mission are, by and large, not historically accurate.

In reality, the Allies totally outnumbered the Germans in most battles.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try playing quick battles with the settings of: Allied assault, attacker +100%

The thing is, while that might be more realistic, that'd be a whole lot less fun.

The fight's in CM aren't supposed to be historically accurate,

they're supposed to be even.

[This message has been edited by Jarmo (edited 10-06-2000).]

[Wilhammer]

http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/011102.html

Go to the above thread.

We have been there and done that, but you will find some useful analysis charts to view.

If you want my cost analysis spreadsheets, I'll get 'em to you.

Check out the above thread first.

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

The thing is, while that might be more realistic, that'd be a whole lot less fun.

The fight's in CM aren't supposed to be historically accurate,

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just the equipment! "Where's my damm scope bonus!"

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Just the equipment! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You perhaps feel the equipment shouldn't be realistic?

[This message has been edited by Jarmo (edited 10-06-2000).]

[CavScout]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

You perhaps feel the equipment shouldn't be realistic?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but I do suspect the intentions of those who want historical equipment for the Axis but none of the historical material and manpower advantage for the Allies.

[Priest]

Hey Bates.

I agree that when dealing with Panthers and Tigers it is hell. But in battle if a Tiger showed up then hell it was. The real issue is rarity. How often did you see two tigers and 5 panthers together with veteran SS troops guarding a great defensive position without initial arty bombardment for a the whole day before? Not often I would think but then again that is why we get pershings and tank destroyers. If anything I think that the allotment of Artillery and air support should be larger or less expensive than the Germans equivlant. But for the most part I have had no problems defeating a defending German force with no restrictions on what the opposing player could buy. Oh and just in case you ever want a great point ratio try buttoning a tank and then flank with Engineers. HEE HEE fun. I think the allies just have to cooridinate their troops together more. More thought but more flexibililty.

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Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb

-Priest

[Aardicus]

My experience with quick battle has been the opposite. With the allied player able to choose a "historically disproportionate" number of easy-eights or fireflys the vaunted Tigers and Panthers no longer have the overwhelmingly superior guns but still suffer from slooooooooooow turrets and no gyro-stablizers. An early game hit from the allies 76mm(usually with tungsten)usually results in a burning German tank. Though this is just my 2 cents...

[Basebal351]

But weren't Tigers and Panthers fairly common on the battlefield? It's not like they were the rarest tanks around. They were a main part of the German armed forces at that time. They were quite a bit more common than the bigger Allied tanks you see people playing with all of the time. Why do you think Allied tankers were always complaining about the Sherman's inferiority to the German tanks? Why do you think there was an investigation launched to look at this issue; the inferiority of the American tanks? American tankers DID lose 2, 3, or even 4 tanks for every 1 German tank they got. They said the only way to overcome those odds was to coordinate their attacks, and use the Sherman turret's higher traversal rate. The Allies on the Western front didn't outnumber the Germans THAT much. Yes, they had more of everything. But they weren't the "Red Horde." If you want massive amounts of people against a small amount of people, wait for CM2 .

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>No, but I do suspect the intentions of those who want historical equipment for the Axis but none of the historical material and manpower advantage for the Allies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's exactly right. for some strange reason, CM and computer game players in general have an obsession with playing on the German side - note the number of German orientated mods available just for starters - and perhaps this has led to the fewer "Allied" voices being drowned out in the development of Combat Mission and its subsequent updates.

No doubt about it, in my mind at least, and this is just my opinion - PBEM is just wrong at the moment.

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"War is like the cinema. The best seats are at the back... the front is all flicker."

- Monte Cassino by Sven Hassel

[russellmz]

i have played the germs once. since im from the US i almost always play amis. something about hoping the ss wins leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

IMHO

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"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[Ron]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>CavScout wrote:

No, but I do suspect the intentions of those who want historical equipment for the Axis but none of the historical material and manpower advantage for the Allies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The historical equipment modelled is in the hands of the designers, it is up to them to make it as realistic as possible. The players have no control over that except to voice their opinions. The players however can recreate historical engagements. There's nothing stopping someone from giving the Allies the manpower and material advantage they think the Allies should have and playing those scenarios, the tools are already there. So what's the beef?

And a final note from the FAQ:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Allies had so much of everything, how can you balance scenarios?

The battles in Combat Mission are relatively small compared to the Western Front as a whole. With a battalion or less per side, it's is not unrealistic to have a local conflict in which the Axis might either outnumber the Allies or have better equipment (like heavy tanks).

Although the Allies had a seemingly endless supply of men, vehicles, and other materials, this was often not apparent in the front lines. Because most equipment, supplies, and reserves were shipped from the USA, shortages were common in front-line units. Losses and lengthy advances only aggravated these shortages. Air support too, although massive, couldn't be everywhere all the time. Therefore, there are plenty of battles where the Germans can stand up to the Allies, and even outnumber them. This reality of ETO combat makes it fairly easy for us to include battles which can be called balanced.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ron

[This message has been edited by Ron (edited 10-07-2000).]

[M. Bates]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>i have played the germs once. since im from the US i almost always play amis. something about hoping the ss wins leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

IMHO<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehehe

Yeah, it's like all these forum topics, such as;

New Tiger/Panther/Jadgpanther/SS Winter Camo/German Steel Helmet mod available now!

Hmmm, very suspicious.....

Before anyone replies to this, please straighten your Party Armbands so that your typing is not impaired

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"War is like the cinema. The best seats are at the back... the front is all flicker."

- Monte Cassino by Sven Hassel

[Guest Big Time Software]

M.Bates wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>No doubt about it, in my mind at least, and this is just my opinion - PBEM is just wrong at the moment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everybody is entitled to their opinions, but it is also my opinion that there is no balancing problem. I play the US more than I do the Germans, and I have NO problem beating the Germans on either attack or defense. Case in point...

I am one turn away from finishing up a PBEM game, Meeting Engagement, no bonuses. The German player selected:

1xTiger

1xPanther A

1xHetzer

1xPuma

1x234/2

1x250/7

1x75mm PAK

1xCo. Veteran SS Motorized Rifle infantry

1 or 2 batteries of some sort of BIG assed artillery.

I chose

1xM36 Jackson

2xM4A3 (76)

1xM3 Scout Car

5xPlatoons REGULAR '44 Pattern Rifle Infantry

Various support weapons from Company purchase

2x81mm Mortars

1x4.5in Artiller Battery

When the game ends I suspect the following will be the case:

I control the main objective and the minor is contested.

The only two vehicles left on the map are his Hetzer and my Scout Car. But I might just manage to take out his Hetzer if he comes a little closer to my Bazooka team

Infantry... I took about 1 Platoon's worth of casualties. So far I can count 2 out of his 3 Platoons WIPED OUT, and the 3rd is on the run.

My 60mm mortars hardly cracked off a round because he never made it to my main line of resistance. I did lose 2 Bazooka teams though

So... with no point difference I bought more stuff and was able to beat the pants off the other guy even though he had superior numbers and qualities of vheicles. Hell, I lost one of my Shermans on the FIRST turn to his Puma

And as Willhammer wrote... if you are going to make a case for the Germans being too cheap, you had better do some homework to prove it The costs are based on a lot of factors and the Germans certainly did not get any sort of break.

Steve

[Guest machineman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CavScout:

No, but I do suspect the intentions of those who want historical equipment for the Axis but none of the historical material and manpower advantage for the Allies.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the other hand I don't know why you've got that in your head Cav, on every thread where people want to improve German equipment you're in there arguing, hell or high water, they shouldn't be able to.

I see lots of people wanting to improve German equipment, yes, but none saying "but you can't increase the cost to keep gameplay balanced". Lots of people, myself included, feel that is how the late part of the war worked anyway, with German equipment advantages, especially in tanks, matched by Allied material and manpower advantages. Look at how many Shermans, Churchills, and T-34's were produced compared to Panthers, probably 10 times as many. There has to be some reasons why the war was not a walkover for the Allies after '43, especially with the tactical and strategic air superiority the Allies had.