John Kettler Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 In playing with the Map Editor the other day, I noticed some items missing from the Terrain Tiles which I'd love to see, either as an upgrade or via outside developers. By the way, the burning building, field and forest tiles make truly scary maps! Welcome to hell, Commander! There are also some models which would be nice to see. Here's my list: * orchards * cornfields * individual trees (windbreaks, etc.) * seasonal grass (may already be in) * plowed field * plowed field w/ row crops (cabbage, beets, spuds, flax) * barn with usable loft * grain silo * farm equipment * industrial buildings * power plant * transformer yard * refinery * POL storage * mine shafts w/ related equipment * railroad tracks w/locomotive & rolling stock * narrow gauge mine railroad train & cars * open pit mines * slag heaps * coal piles * construction equipment * telephone poles * high tension towers * fire watchtowers * haystacks w/ code to allow hiding inside * aircraft hangars and revetments * aircraft * ammo dump/POL dump * lumber mill * grist mill * pipeline * tents * craters, range of sizes * streetcars * camouflage nets & supporting code * footpaths & trails Also, maybe it's my unfamiliarity with building terrain, but I keep coming up with roads which don't connect and are way outside of acceptable roadbuilding specifications. I think part of my problem may be that the tiles themselves are not geomorphic, making it hard to seamlessly connect things, but you should see the weird angles and unnatural looking surfaces I've gotten so far. Is there any way to code in self-leveling roads, at least reasonably so? This list is merely intended to get the ball rolling. I'm spoiled already, but there's no harm asking--is there? Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 Haystacks.. Reminds me of a story my mate told me. His grandad personally ran away from a tiger tank, (well he reckoned it was a tiger hehe). He was near some HQ or something, and had been told by his superior officers to 'guard it', and was given a tommy gun. He felt pretty cool aparently. The brit soldiers obviously thought the tommy gun was pretty darn super. So he proceded to strutt around this road with his tommy run, ready to challenge anyone who should cross his path. then apparently, out of the blue this german tank appears on the road. About then he ran for it. It didn't fire at him with mg, he thought it must be out of ammo. He ran across a field and hid in a hay stack and it started shooting at him with its main gun. But apparently, was also out of HE since round just whizzed through it and there were no explossions. He decided that a haystack wasn't the best place to hide so ran for it into a barn where he hid again. The tank start shooting AP rounds through the barn. Lots of nice neat holes! After a while it got bored and drove off and he emerged a little humbled I loved the stuff my mate would tell me about his grandad. The guys bassic philosophy during WW2 was "heroism gets people killed", and saw it happen more than a few times. Eg. crazy new Lt. leads 4 or so other guys in a charge against an mg post, everyone dies while he was more than happy to wait for arty or air support. When you think about it, evolution suggests that our ancestors were infact cowards/cautious, since they are the ones most likely to survive. We could probably all trace our line back through a series of rather cautious men, (in the long term i guess). I find that thought kinda amusing. And the idea of some brave (crazy) soul is an aberation of our character It's Friday and I muse, crazy me I think Spike Milligans war memoires should be required reading. I think we would think in much the same way about these things. I figure 80% of the armed forces were people like Spike. Folks who never really saw direct combat and as a rule, arsed around. My favourite SM story was when he was driving around in his truck looking for something in Italy. It was a rough area and soon they were a bit lost. All of a sudden two germans pop out in the road infront of them and throw their hands up, surrendering! Spike skids to a halt and his CO asks him what's going on. Spike says there's some germans surrendering, and the CO goes something like "bugger taking them back to base, tell them to clear off", so spike get out of the truck and makes 'shoo' ing noises "shoo shoo, go away" and herds them off the road before taking off. Anyway, have a nice one. and don't be too brave. It's dangerous. PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 Woah! That's quite the list! I'd like to see some different terrain, too, but I think some of them would be marginally useful (remember, there's major programming issues involved): * grain silo (did they even have these in NW Europe?) * farm equipment * mine shafts w/ related equipment * narrow gauge mine railroad train & cars (above ground or underground?) * construction equipment * telephone poles (don't see how they'd affect the game) * high tension towers (ditto) * fire watchtowers * haystacks w/ code to allow hiding inside * aircraft hangars and revetments * aircraft * ammo dump/POL dump * pipeline * streetcars Not trying to be nitpicky or anything, just (hopefully) constructive criticism. P.S. You forgot Flak towers.... ------------------ "Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*IX*Angela Deth Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 How about castles and larger stone walls? This IS europe after all... A.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holdit Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 "I think Spike Milligans war memoires should be required reading." ___________________________________________ Definitely. I like the one where they had to go along a stretch of road that could be seen by German '88s. They were is a Universal carrier. Rather that run the gauntlet, they waited behind a house until another British vehicle came along...then they hid behind that, keeping it between them and the Germans as they drove! So if you've ever done something similar, it's not gamey. Or the time he wanders into a pub with his arm in a sling after a training accident, and is bought drinks all night by patrons who think he's just been on the Dieppe raid. Needless to say, he...em..forgets to put them right. "So there I was, charging this machine-gun nest..." On a more serious note, it's worth reading to reaction of the battery to the death of a popular lieutenant, and the account of Spike's breakdown while on a barren hill in Italy under fire from 88s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterNZer Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 yeah, i agree. In fact, my mates grandad apparently also thought that Spikes memoires were the best, and easily most accurate of the war Interesting eh? I reckon when we are complaining about conscript moral type troops we should probably realise that in all armies, this would be the -standard- behaviour for -all- members of the armed forces except for a few hard-core gropos We should just thank god that our troops sit in one place when getting shot at rather than run screaming for the hills hehe PeterNZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted July 28, 2000 Share Posted July 28, 2000 Ah, Spike Milligan, Spike Milligan, Spike Milligan. The old git appeared at an awards ceremony a couple of years ago and called Prince Charles (one of his fans) an 'arse-licking bastard' or something similar and got a round of applause... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Molyneaux2 Posted July 29, 2000 Share Posted July 29, 2000 I think my favorite part was when Spike was in Africa after the surrender and they were conducting wargames. A chap rode up on his motor bike and marked them all dead for some reason and as he tried to start his bike he broke his leg, Spike grabbed his piece of chalk and marked the referee wounded Abridged, but thats the gist of it, had me laughing out loud. Great books, have 3, have heard there are more. Any idea? Molyneaux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindicide Posted July 29, 2000 Share Posted July 29, 2000 You don't say which three you have so here's the full list of Spikes autobiographies. Adolf Hitler:My part in his downfall. 'Rommel?''Gunner who?' Monty:His part in my victory. Mussolini:His part in my downfall. Where have all the bullets gone? Goodbye,soldier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 30, 2000 Author Share Posted July 30, 2000 I don't know how a serious thread was so thoroughly hijacked by humorists, but I thought of some more items I'd like to add to my original idea. But first, let me answer IntelWeenie about telephone poles. They can be a real problem when traversing your turret, especially if the gun tube is long. Bashing the gun barrel against them to knock them down is bad news for precision fire control optics and throws the gun out of boresight. As for high tension towers (an item I'm not even sure existed), they are found in conjunction with swathes cut through forest and brush (the rights of way) and make excellent, though exposed, OPs. * German style forests (tall trees, considerable separation between them, in regular lines w/ no undergrowth) These forests should be able to pass most vehicles. The reason I say this is that I have seen reports in professional military journals describing landing helicopters in clearings, then pulling them into the woods for refueling, rearming and other activities. Believe Harriers also operated that way as well. Seems to me that if there's room in there for a Huey or a Harrier, a vehicle or AFV should also fit, terrain permitting. Question: How is it that something as big as an 88 or 90mm gun can be put in the woods, but an AFV or softskin of the same size can't? Just last night in a QB I fought an American 90mm gun and a 76mm gun emplaced in the woods. If no vehicle or AFV can enter, how is it then that a wheeled gun carriage of considerable size can? The logic here eludes me. * fences, several types * woodpiles * factory smokestacks (w/ provisions for using as OPs) * bare ground * rock formations (sedimentary, igneous, etc.) * cliff facings * road and railroad cuts This is all I have for now. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 mega-LOL John, That was the funniest post I've ever read in this forum. I agree there's certainly room for more variety - detail and variety is the essence of old countries like France. Maps in Combat Mission never really look very European, but good design can alleviate some of the engine's shortcomings. However, I don't think BTS want to be spending the rest of their lives modelling the correct species of cows and chickens you would find in France. It's a war game, not a France Simulator. I think gameplay comes before graphical realism - what we've got is quite good enough. I am impressed that they put a note in the manual about designing European-looking maps. What I'm wondering is, did Fionn forget about this when he designed the Red Devils scenario? Hey Fionn, you're from over here, aren't you - what's with the grid-arranged houses in a big clearing? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscano Posted July 30, 2000 Share Posted July 30, 2000 I'd like to see sand. I know the title of the game is Beyond Overlord, but I've played a couple of the Beach assault scenarios that People have posted and they're pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 4, 2000 Author Share Posted August 4, 2000 David Aitken, I guess I have the gift of inadvertent humor, since I made two serious posts with real issues and questions in them. I am particularly interested in the answers to the questions I raised in the second post. Sincerely, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stickan Posted August 4, 2000 Share Posted August 4, 2000 >* railroad tracks w/locomotive & rolling stock Armored trains Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatAWilson Posted August 4, 2000 Share Posted August 4, 2000 There seem to be a lot of empty spots on the CM tile pallet. Anybody have a clue as to how these tiles work? My thinking is that some of these slots can be used to designate some new "large heavy buildings" that look like factories instead of apartment buildings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaffod Posted August 4, 2000 Share Posted August 4, 2000 I will definatly have to check those Spike Millagan books.. I have never heard of them.. Hope you can get em here in the US. As far as terrain details are concerned: -coke cans lying here and there from sloppy, lazy GIs -Cigarette butts everywhere - name one ww2 movie where there werent 4 people in any scene smokin one. -Broken bottles of Warsteiner left behind from retreating german soldiers -And finally... horses.. gotta have horses. Didnt the Germans use lots of horse drawn carriages n guns?? thats my .oo2 sense worth... Zaff' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 John, while a few of the items on your list leave me cold, most of them would be things I would welcome (especially the road/rail cuts; could add embankments too). I think there would be a problem though in coding the game engine so that it would have proper behavour toward them ("Bad, bad game engine. Go sit in the corner!"). But as long as you are putting a wish list together, how about adding a switching yard for that rail line? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler: Question: How is it that something as big as an 88 or 90mm gun can be put in the woods, but an AFV or softskin of the same size can't? Just last night in a QB I fought an American 90mm gun and a 76mm gun emplaced in the woods. If no vehicle or AFV can enter, how is it then that a wheeled gun carriage of considerable size can? The logic here eludes me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Were the guns in place at the beginning of the scenario? If so, it makes sense because you can imagine that their crews had time to prepare an emplacement for them before the battle began. If, on the other hand, they were wheeling them into place while the scenario was going on, then I think you have a gripe. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusm Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 I was actually surprised to see there was no graveyards. A church with a graveyard makes for a more realistic village imo. Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 marcusm wrote: > A church with a graveyard makes for a more realistic village imo. Just give it a yard surrounded by bocage - looks great, very medieval. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcusm Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 David, is it possible to paint one tile to look like churchyard? I was thinking of some tile you rarelly use (like one of the burning ones). Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BasilD Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 All the add-ons would look great im sure, I think tho keeping the # of textures down so the game runs with voodoo2 and earlier equip is a major consideration... Plus yah I doubt they want to model evey cow in France...Belgium maybe tho ------------------ As the victors define history, so does the majority define sanity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted August 5, 2000 Share Posted August 5, 2000 The accounts of the war that I have read suggest that one tile is of primary importance: -- The manure pile. ------------------ Ethan ----------- Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted August 8, 2000 Author Share Posted August 8, 2000 I concur! If we're going to have farms, we must have manure piles. I love the graveyard idea also. I bridle at the idea of siting a flak tower near a manure pile, though. Ruin walls (castle modules?) and bombed out buildings would be great too. "Captain, we believe that ruined/intact chateau you see there houses a German OP which has been interdicting movement on our main supply route. Don't expect the Krauts to give it up without a fight, since it commands the entire valley. Expect heavy resistance." Would be thrilled to see armored trains, but we've already made some progress. Just a few minutes ago I discovered that railroad tracks already exist in the tile set, but they're way down at the bottom. They don't seem to come with embankments, though. I think we can build a marshalling yard, sans signal towers, water towers, coaling facilities, of course. There are NO RR bridges either. Naturally, I HAD to fire up the map maker and build a treelined valley upon whose floor ran a paved road and double tracks, with a town in the middle. Evidently, the 9th AF had just visited, leaving the town shattered and burning, the tracks blocked by rubble (need bomb craters, etc. yesterday!), and an entire hillside ablaze. Looked like Hell. In closing, I'd also like to request bridges usable on the diagonal. Sincerely, John Kettler [This message has been edited by John Kettler (edited 08-08-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Kettler: Just a few minutes ago I discovered that railroad tracks already exist in the tile set, but they're way down at the bottom. They don't seem to come with embankments, though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> John, you can do that by simply putting the RR on a higher elevation level. I have made a map with a very steep embankment, basically cutting the map in two. Looks cool. For RR bridges I just use road bridges, does the job. Email me privately if you are interested in having a look. Apart from that, BTS have stated that there will be no new tiles in CM1. The coding effort apparently is huge. Once you get around that statement, just be creative with what we have got. You can make absolutely beautiful maps with what we have, trust me. It is due more to a limit to imaginativeness than to a limit to tiles, I find. Which brings me on to grid-square towns. If I get a scenario to test with a grid-layout town, I won't even bother to start it. Nothing can be more boring to me. I abhor MOUT already, if it is in boring surroundings it just does not make the grade at all. What is written in the manual about European landscape is so true. Ps. No grain silos in Europe that I know of (and I am from the countryside). But you have concrete silos for winter fodder, however these are built into the ground. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts