Back To The Waal problem

[Shoggot]

Hello!

I've started to play this scenario as Allies and I'm just helpless. I don't know what to do, I'm starting to think that there is only one right approach. I'm at 25:00 on timer now and this is the situation. So far the casualties were minimal, I managed to destroy AA position on A and in the fort, also took Embankment kinda, but depleted all of my mortars because of that.

 

Now I'm simply stuck, there is NO WAY how to win this scenario. If you try to cross the enbankment (even with smoke grenades), bam, you're dead, Germans on the other side and from houses (white line), just destroy you. Like immediately, there is no chance. If you try to cross the embankment near fort, BANG, Germans immediately eliminate you, no chance.

There is literally no approach to do here without obliterating your forces and lose. Was this scenario designer intent? I thought that maybe you could take the MG C out with mortars and strike there with all your men (the moment you divide them, they all die - there is no way how to attack in more places at the same time, but that is true about most scenarios in CMBN). Or is this whole thing about game engine? My soldiers can't fire or see anything even though they are on the embankment and the Germans just massacre them the moment they step on the road. No exceptions.

And don't tell me about using the dikes like cover, like there is in cover. That's nonsense. At no point you cant get to them, because that would meant crossing the embakment, which results in immediate wipe-out. Even if there are two Germans with smg laying in open ground, they just massacre you. And 88 and MG from the house start shooting at you.

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Shoggot

[A Canadian Cat]

Well there is no doubt this is challenging for the allies. I won vs a human opponent but my losses were severe. I stared with two pronged approach toward A and B. When I came under fire my men stopped and brought up their mortars and MMGs to overwhelm each German position as it fired on them. Use the 60mm with direct fire from further back than you lead units - use Target Light to slow ammo usage. Once one MG position goes silent continue advancing until you find another one. Once I cleared the enemy from around A the area near B came next but you are right when you try to go over the top things go badly very fast. By the time my men go there there was no / or very few enemy just behind the main dyke. I tried to go over the top and was punished for trying but from afar not from up close. I made sure the upper stories of the houses near B were under fire and then used those houses to cover a pointed attempt to go over the top. If you position your forces to go over such that the houses block the LOS of the enemy at the back of the map you can reduce the fire power they can bring. Once I cleared the houses (did not enter them) I was able to basically expose a little more of my men behind the road dyke and the houses to pick off one German position at at time near the back of the map. Again using the mortars and MMGs. Once the 88s were dealt with and the back of the map was quiet I used the road dyke to shield my advance to C (yes you can do that). Again the enemy that was initially firing on my advance was long since mortared to death so I only had to deal with squad MG42s not HMGs. I massed soldiers across from the bridge to the fort and the "To RR Bridge" objective and attacked simultaneous along with a weaker thrust from the houses at B. This final phase was tough though because my men had suffered and I was herding broken and rattled men into the fray. The only saving grace was my opponent's troops were in no better shape.

[Rinaldi]

Solid advice from @IanL; and very close to what the Americans did in reality (who, by the way, carried the day with vigor - at the cost of 48 KIA). The Americans massed fire on every MG in turn (with paratroopers, even understrength, you can gain fire superiority very quickly, they're insanely well armed) and used the enemy trenches against them, covering movements up the dike. The Americans swung to the North quite a bit before cresting that paved road, iirc. You can do the same, its just getting up to that embankment that is the first difficult problem.

Of course you can't swim across those little streams like the Americans did, so flanking North may be out of the question - its been a long time since I've played and I can't recall if they're fordable. Regardless, when I played I sent a platoon and the command group of one of the Companies to where the paved dike bends to try and get some enfilade. It was a bloodbath but I ended up winning, lots of units were approaching winchester on ammo by the end.

Save the 60mm ammo as much as possible for the direct fire cannons, but in my experience half a platoon firing at an 88 will keep the crew useless.

The mission's a real PITA but that's part of its appeal.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Rinaldi

[benpark]

This is my scenario. It was a near impossible feat in reality, and I wanted to give the player the chance to see first hand the difficulty in the desperate cross-Waal attck. This simulates that, over terrain that matches as closely as possible the actual ground fought over.

There are a few methods of attack that will yield a victory. I am very personally against "gamey" design that funnels the player in one direction, and I tend towards "playble historical" design (for non-fictional scenarios)- so what is simulated here are the general choices available to the historical counterparts. Just be thankful that the actual crossing isn't simulated!

Spoilers:

I was able in testing to defeat the Germans by rushing the embankment around the area of the center to left flank, then flanking right. Going right directly is probably going to get messy, as it is completely open. Smoke is also of great use for crossing any open patches. Take your time, and focus firepower on immediate threats before moving any assault groups forwards.

[Shoggot]

Thank you very much. All your insights are very helpful. If anybody has any other insights, I would be appreciate it.

 

Sorry if I sounded anrgy or something. This scenario really got into my nerves, because I started to question myself and even my basic ability to command. But seeing now how hard the real thing was, I think you got the scenario totally right. Thank you.

[benpark]

No, no worries at all. Completely understandable.

It is quite a tough one, but MG was full of these nearly impossible odds that were overcome (or nearly so) by audacious command and unbelievable bravery. CM models that pretty well, along with the ability to hew pretty close to getting the forces and terrain as close to historical as possible. That sometimes creates very tough battles, but they can be very good insights into the historical battle.

[benpark]

This also gives a good idea of the historical attack routes with good aerial photographs:

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/articles/the-heroic-waal-river-crossing-82nd-airborne-504th-pir-h-company-after-action-report.html/3

[Warts 'n' all]

Also, you could cheer yourself up by playing it as the Axis. 

[ramponiere]

I won a decisive in Elite playing this way. Don't deploy your mortars till you have a clear idea of the best targets in order to spare ammo and to avoid detection by the real  threat the two mg and the two 20mm. Employ only one tube against each of them. The best are those that have no direct spotting of the target ( it's a two way )but can throw near their position. Use light target. More time of suppression also if a direct hit is not achieved. Target  the mg on the embakment ZOC. One tube may be enough to score and at light target rof you can have some round to use in the same way against the other germans along the embankment. Don't target the 20mm in the fort. Don't move the mortars from their depolyng standar position. leave behind some radio near them to insure further contact. I massed  half of my forces to the A zone, and the second along your yellow line using the covering of the embakment and stoppinh them in the no see zone between the water and the start of embankment, in short dash of 15 sec every 1 minute turn (pause the first 45 for maximum control). Hide at the end of the rush. If you have clear target at the start of the nex turn spray them in the 45 pause. Repeat. When arrived to the embankment of the A zone activate one tube. One of the deploying spot has clear target to the  20mm trench also if they cant se them directly, (try with the target line). Once destroyed  this 20mm with mortar and direct fire from the crest you are safe from enfilading fire from the left and you could rush the A forces to the  embankment. Make sure that one good Hq could spot from here the 88. Use indirect fire from one tube on them. In the same time use the second half to movealong the safe side of the embankment. Drop a few salvos against any spotted foxholes. When the indirect fire starts against the 88 put the A forces on the crest to suppress and hit the Germans on their side of the embankment. By now (20 minutes left more or less) you must have  the second half of your forces a little to the right of your blu line. Now start fire against the AA in the fort and if they have opened up  also to the mg in the corner to the RR bridge. Under this suppression  climb the emabnkment with all you have. If you win the firefight ( I did with some ease) the route to the the fort is open. Rush to the walls. Once arrived I 've seen the German morale collapsing and defenders routed after few shots

[mjkerner]

...and, no matter how you play it, you should have no smoke grenades (don't recall if the mortars have smoke shells) left over!

Edited January 25, 2017 by mjkerner