Command and Control

[landser]

I suppose this could have been put in any of the CMx2 forums, but I'll post it here. I understand C2 in a general sense, but I would like to understand the mechanics and effects more clearly. I have many questions, but I'll start with these.

-- HQ units. Let's suppose I have a platoon of infantry. The three squads all have normal experience and morale. The HQ has  -1 for morale and -1 experience. By having the squads in C2 range, would the leader's worse modifiers negatively affect the squads?

--  The command lines that can be displayed can be bright red, dark red or black (indicating no C2). What are the practical differences here? How is the dark red different from the bright red?

--  By being in C2 range, how do the leader's modifiers affect those under their control? They will share spotting? Do they shoot straighter, less likely to panic or run? What are the in-game affects of being in C2 range and how do the leader's experience and morale ratings factor in for those under their control.

-- How does having the chain of command in range affect all of this. For example what benefits if any might I see if the Platoon leader is linked to the Company CO who in turn is linked with the Battalion CO. Do modifiers stack in some way. If in this example for instance will the Platoons be benefitting from the Battalion CO, and if so in what ways.

Edited April 7, 2016 by landser

[George MC]

I'm no expert and TBH some of this stuff can be "fuzzy" in game. As I guess it is in RL. 

So FTW here is my take. 

HQ modifiers and their effect on units under their command. My understanding is the modifiers influence "how effective" the HQ unit is in maintaining command and control. So - values = not so effective. The more tangible effect on - modifiers is as described below.

the command lines indicate how effective the internal comms are within the unit. You can check this out more clearly by looking at the small icons in the UI. So HQ can have comms in the platoon by visual, by sound, full command (this from memory but you'll see what I mean in game). This affects how red the line is. Bright red = full and effective comms. Darker red = less so.

this question similar to above but the sharing of spotting info is key here. Units being under command will "behave" more reliably if they are under command. The poorer the leadership the longer it takes to share spotted contacts. 

Effective chain of command e.g. Unbroken links from squad to battalion means spotting info is shared. The better or more effective the links the quicker and more effectively this info shared. I find this especially useful when working with armoured units. In fact my SOP is having the 2ics with another unit staying close with the CO of their opposite number e.g. 2ic from tank unit with company CO of infantry and vice versa. Also for some units having good comms to battalion means better able/quicker to call in arty support.

Anyway my twa' bob's worth!

cheery!

 

[Combatintman]

Some stuff you may find useful ...

I'm not stalking MOS 96B2P btw ...!!!

[landser]

Thanks for the replies. I looked through those links that Combatintman provided and they mainly discuss spotting, which I think I have a good handle on. I am concerned more with, I suppose you would call it cohesion, and how C2 affects combat ability.

Like here's a crazy thought... I was wondering if I had a platoon such as in the example I gave above, where I have normal experience and morale squads, but a -1 HQ, would my pixeltruppen perform better if I purposely kept the squads out of C2 with the HQ unit? These sort of things are what I am wondering.

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, landser said:

Thanks for the replies. I looked through those links that Combatintman provided and they mainly discuss spotting, which I think I have a good handle on. I am concerned more with, I suppose you would call it cohesion, and how C2 affects combat ability.

Yeah, @MOS:96B2P has done a lot of good stuff around C2.  Great threads. And I am totally stalking him on the forum I mean.

 

1 hour ago, landser said:

Like here's a crazy thought... I was wondering if I had a platoon such as in the example I gave above, where I have normal experience and morale squads, but a -1 HQ, would my pixeltruppen perform better if I purposely kept the squads out of C2 with the HQ unit? These sort of things are what I am wondering.

The short answer is no that would be a bad thing.

[A Canadian Cat]

19 hours ago, landser said:

I suppose this could have been put in any of the CMx2 forums, but I'll post it here. I understand C2 in a general sense, but I would like to understand the mechanics and effects more clearly. I have many questions, but I'll start with these.

-- HQ units. Let's suppose I have a platoon of infantry. The three squads all have normal experience and morale. The HQ has  -1 for morale and -1 experience. By having the squads in C2 range, would the leader's worse modifiers negatively affect the squads?

No.  A bad leader will give some benefit to a squad.  A better leader more benefit.

 

19 hours ago, landser said:

--  The command lines that can be displayed can be bright red, dark red or black (indicating no C2). What are the practical differences here? How is the dark red different from the bright red?

There are three colours of lines? I never noticed - back to the game for me.

 

19 hours ago, landser said:

--  By being in C2 range, how do the leader's modifiers affect those under their control? They will share spotting? Do they shoot straighter, less likely to panic or run? What are the in-game affects of being in C2 range and how do the leader's experience and morale ratings factor in for those under their control.

They will share spotting information.  Not sure about shooting straighter.  Defiantly makes them less likely to panic.  They recover faster if they do get shaken.  And the effects of panicking or being shaken are less then if they entered into that state without being in C2.  In other words if a squad out of C2 gets into trouble they will end up Rattled or Broken quicker than the same squad in the same trouble that is in C2.

 

19 hours ago, landser said:

-- How does having the chain of command in range affect all of this. For example what benefits if any might I see if the Platoon leader is linked to the Company CO who in turn is linked with the Battalion CO. Do modifiers stack in some way. If in this example for instance will the Platoons be benefitting from the Battalion CO, and if so in what ways.

I think that mostly deals with information sharing. 

One other thing that you could see is a squad that is in C2 according to the voice, visible icons but out of C2 by the green / red dots in the command structure.  This means that a higher level HQ is close enough to give support to the squad but it is not their Platoon HQ.  For example if you have a platoon that is spread out to guard something that is not under direct threat you can have a company HQ assist in keeping all the squads under C2.  Also if a platoon HQ is eliminated or is leaderless you can push the company HQ forward and keep the platoon's squads in C2.

[Bud Backer]

I think a way to look at this is that a "0" leader is average. A "+2" leader is truly beneficial, while a "-2" is a is not as helpful (for example). Nonetheless, the poorer leader is still needed to lead his men, give them orders and cohesion. He's not as good as an average leader, but he does have a role and is needed. I'd not look at the -2 or -1 as anything other than, not as good as average. That's different from "good lord, you'll get us all killed!"

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, Bud Backer said:

I think a way to look at this is that a "0" leader is average. A "+2" leader is truly beneficial, while a "-2" is a is not as helpful (for example). Nonetheless, the poorer leader is still needed to lead his men, give them orders and cohesion. He's not as good as an average leader, but he does have a role and is needed. I'd not look at the -2 or -1 as anything other than, not as good as average.

That seems like a good way to think about it to me.

 

1 hour ago, Bud Backer said:

That's different from "good lord, you'll get us all killed!"

Yeah - that's us players' job

 

[landser]

Excellent, thanks for the replies. So we can say that for sure that being in C2 helps with spotting by sharing the info, and in the units' combat err, steadfastness? We can't say for sure whether it affects ability with weapons, nor can we say the degree to which the HQ unit's modifiers affect the performance of those under their spell?

[George MC]

9 minutes ago, landser said:

Excellent, thanks for the replies. So we can say that for sure that being in C2 helps with spotting by sharing the info, and in the units' combat err, steadfastness? We can't say for sure whether it affects ability with weapons, nor can we say the degree to which the HQ unit's modifiers affect the performance of those under their spell?

I think that's a reasonable summary. 

This is conjecture but a charismatic and effective leader does not make you a better shot or a more skilled soldier. At best it may make those under command more liable to "hold" or hide but not make em ace shots. 

So positive movies might enhance their resilience and ability to do what they are told but turn em into one shot one kill killing machines ?

[landser]

18 minutes ago, George MC said:

 

This is conjecture but a charismatic and effective leader does not make you a better shot or a more skilled soldier.

 

True enough George, but it could also be argued that an effective leader places his soldiers in better positions and directs fire more effectively, that sort of thing. So I don't think it's unreasonable that soldiers use their weapons more effectively with better leadership. I understand that it isn't probable that it works this way in CM, but not out the question that it could.

[George MC]

11 minutes ago, landser said:

True enough George, but it could also be argued that an effective leader places his soldiers in better positions and directs fire more effectively, that sort of thing. So I don't think it's unreasonable that soldiers use their weapons more effectively with better leadership. I understand that it isn't probable that it works this way in CM, but not out the question that it could.

Aye makes em more resilient- better able to withstand fire I.e. Find good cover/firing positions and keep up a good return rate of fire.

[sonar]

I recently started imposing c2 restrictions on myself. for instance, If a forward squad  comes under fire from an enemy in a tree line, i don't allow mg that is on overwatch to area fire in support or any artillery, until the info has been passed up to at least an hq that could relay the info and command them to do so. This makes me much more conscious of maintaining c2 links and it is more realistic way to play, rather than borg spotting on behalf of your troops and having them fire on targets that in the game they are unaware of. Cheers.

[George MC]

3 minutes ago, sonar said:

I recently started imposing c2 restrictions on myself. for instance, If a forward squad  comes under fire from an enemy in a tree line, i don't allow mg that is on overwatch to area fire in support or any artillery, until the info has been passed up to at least an hq that could relay the info and command them to do so. This makes me much more conscious of maintaining c2 links and it is more realistic way to play, rather than borg spotting on behalf of your troops and having them fire on targets that in the game they are unaware of. Cheers.

Aye me too

[MOS:96B2P]

 

15 hours ago, Combatintman said:

I'm not stalking MOS 96B2P btw ...!!!

11 hours ago, IanL said:

<Snip>  And I am totally stalking him on the forum I mean.

LOL.   That's funny.  I have been out of C2 myself for awhile.  The tower that provides internet for our rural area was hit by lightning Tuesday night.  They just got it back to working intermittently a few hours ago.  So I can confirm ............ no C2 is a bad thing.    

[MOS:96B2P]

20 hours ago, George MC said:

<Snip>  In fact my SOP is having the 2ics with another unit staying close with the CO of their opposite number e.g. 2ic from tank unit with company CO of infantry and vice versa. Also for some units having good comms to battalion means better able/quicker to call in arty support.  <Snip> 

This is a great idea. +1 

8 hours ago, sonar said:

I recently started imposing c2 restrictions on myself. for instance, If a forward squad  comes under fire from an enemy in a tree line, i don't allow mg that is on overwatch to area fire in support or any artillery, until the info has been passed up to at least an hq that could relay the info and command them to do so. This makes me much more conscious of maintaining c2 links and it is more realistic way to play, rather than borg spotting on behalf of your troops and having them fire on targets that in the game they are unaware of. Cheers.

I especially like doing this against the AI.  It has the added benefit of helping out the AI and getting yourself a more realistic challenging fight.