BTR Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) I like how people parallel a drastically different Korean liner incident with MH17, but keep ignoring black sea incident of 2001 which happened during peacetime training. Entirely probable for Ukrainians to mess their BUK test fires during a conflict. Edited February 21, 2016 by BTR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 except that it is agreed the shot came from Russian proxy occupied area and the Russia proxies got all hot and bothered they were so excited to announce they shot down a plane until they found out it was an airliner. So enough of the trying to somehow some way find a way to fault Ukraine. This tragedy lies at the feet of Putin. He's just too much a coward to own it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTR Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Except that it isn't agreed because it was physically impossible to shoot the liner at 10000m at 800+km/h from the left sphere from rebel occupied territory. Naturally you will blame physics bending on Putin as well, to which I say that the American faith in all-mighty Putin found on this forum far surpasses our domestic one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nidhöggr Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 If you have a poor understanding of the facts and unreasonable expectations about how quickly things can change, you're bound to be disappointed.If Russia had not sent in regular forces to Debaltseve Ukraine would not have lost it. Even with the Russian forces it was a difficult fight and taking the city was obviously behind the Russian military planner's schedule. They were supposed to have taken the city BEFORE the Minsk 2 ceasefire went into place as this is the way Russia operates. It takes something by force and then gets a ceasefire to help keep it. In reality the Russian forces were fighting full force for 3 days after the fake ceasefire. They also allowed a huge proportion of the Ukrainian forces to escape because they were not able to fully interdict their withdrawal. As someone who has a degree in history, studied warfare for almost 30 years, and made wargames for 20+ years... it is my opinion that the Ukrainians did pretty well in this operation with all factors considered. Certainly it was a major improvement over the fighting only a few months before. I am on record of saying that as the battle came to a close around this same time last year. I have seen no new information since then to change my mind.Factually incorrect. I mean that in the most literal sense. Others have already covered this. Ukraine has absolutely no responsibility for what happened. None, zero. It is a fact, not an opinion.I don't want to have a debate about MH-17, but it is pretty clear that Russia didn't hand this system over to a bunch of coal miners. It is too complicated to operate and therefore the only reasonable conclusion is that it was crewed by a Russian military crew. There is also ample 1st hand evidence that it was.SteveYou have answered my post and yet you do not adress my Point?!Educate yourself about the actual battlemap over Debaltseve if you don't get my point i suggest that you study warfare for yet another 30 years. Ukraine has the ultimate RESPONSIBILITY to adress ANY potential risk for civilian airliners inside their airspace and that's a FACT!I have never BLAIMED Ukraine for the downing of Mh17!READ MY POSTS before you reply!I have pointed finger at INKOMPETENCE of Ukrainian officals involved in flightsecurity!FACT 1. A Ukrainian cargo plane is shot down at high altitude!FACT 2. A fully operational BUK is inside the CONFLICT ZONE!FACT 3. A fully operational BUK is out of Ukrainian Control!FACT 4. A fully operational BUK is driving around in areas NOT controlled by the Ukrainians!For any COMPETENT official this is a serious threat to flightsecurity and should be adressed!!3 Days later a fully operational BUK pops up...out of Ukrainian CONTROL....in an area that Ukraine do not CONTROL...manned by half-assed trained separatist or a sloppy Russian crew.....and here comes Mh17 and they are just about to fly over the most DANGEROUS area in Ukraine......INKOMPETENCE!!!Yes some halfwit Russian pulled the trigger.....but seriously dude....there are several Ukrainian officials who needs to have a size10 Dr Martens UP THEIR ASSES....many times....H-A-R-D!!.....and that's a F-A-C-T!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HUSKER2142 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) Silly and funny article, if the Russian Army so bad then why until Ukrainian army could not take the Donbass, Crimea and Luhansk region. If it could be done more summer-autumn 2014.P.S. Close topic better. Глупая и смешная статья , если в армии РФ всё так плохо то почему до тех пор украинская армия не может взять Донбасскую , Луганскую область и Крым . Если это можно было сделать ещё лето-осень 2014 году . Edited February 21, 2016 by HUSKER2142 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Ukraine has the ultimate RESPONSIBILITY to adress ANY potential risk for civilian airliners inside their airspace and that's a FACT!You absolutely have a point that civilian air traffic was at risk and blame for not being careful needs to be assigned. I personally think the airlines themselves should shoulder some.Having said that we really should be making sure the real blame rests where it belongs - with the Russian government. They are the ones that created this conflict, fueled to the level it has been at, provided the SAM system and probably the crew that murdered all those people on MH17. The Duch investigation seems to have done a decent job of naming those likely responsible.Time for those that are actually responsible to be held to account.But I imagine that will be unlikely given that if they were we would probably find that even more and higher ups should be held to account as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I remain impressed at the level of denial. Russian missile, from a Russian launcher in a Russian controlled part of the Ukraine, as verified from every source that isn't owned by the Russian government.Yep. Totally a Ukrainian stealth SU-25 false flag operation/mistaken missile launch/swamp gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) You have answered my post and yet you do not adress my Point?!Sure I did, but you chose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your view.Educate yourself about the actual battlemap over Debaltseve if you don't get my point i suggest that you study warfare for yet another 30 years.And now you are stooping to personal attacks. You will not last long here if that is the extent of your intellectual capabilities.Ukraine has the ultimate RESPONSIBILITY to adress ANY potential risk for civilian airliners inside their airspace and that's a FACT!No, it is the responsibility of the airlines to assess risk, not Ukraine. And you forget that Ukraine did have an advisory about overflying the Donbas up to 26,000 feet. MH-17 was downed at around 33,000 feet.I have never BLAIMED Ukraine for the downing of Mh17!READ MY POSTS before you reply!I have pointed finger at INKOMPETENCE of Ukrainian officals involved in flightsecurity!I am not going to debate competence, only responsibility...FACT 1. A Ukrainian cargo plane is shot down at high altitude!The Ukrainian AN-26 was shot down at 21,000 ft, which is why Ukraine announced an advisory up to 26,000 ft. Malaysian Airlines knew of this airspace restriction and the reason for it, yet they made a voluntary decision to fly over the area. As did many other airlines, including Russia's own Aeroflot. Ultimate responsibility, therefore, lies with Malaysian Airline's decision to save fuel costs and reduce flight times by overflying an active combat zone with proven threat to high altitude flights. Russia bares sole responsibility for the actual shooting down of MH-17.FACT 2. A fully operational BUK is inside the CONFLICT ZONE!FACT 3. A fully operational BUK is out of Ukrainian Control!FACT 4. A fully operational BUK is driving around in areas NOT controlled by the Ukrainians!FACT 5. you are talking about a matter of hours bettween the first unconfirmed sighting and the downing of MH-17. No government in the world reacts that fast to unconfirmed information. Nor should it. Your expectations are unrealistic and unreasonable.For any COMPETENT official this is a serious threat to flightsecurity and should be adressed!!3 Days later a fully operational BUK pops up...out of Ukrainian CONTROL....in an area that Ukraine do not CONTROL...manned by half-assed trained separatist or a sloppy Russian crew.....and here comes Mh17 and they are just about to fly over the most DANGEROUS area in Ukraine......INKOMPETENCE!!!Yes some halfwit Russian pulled the trigger.....but seriously dude....there are several Ukrainian officials who needs to have a size10 Dr Martens UP THEIR ASSES....many times....H-A-R-D!!.....and that's a F-A-C-T!!No, that is an opinion.Steve Edited February 21, 2016 by Battlefront.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) I remain impressed at the level of denial. Russian missile, from a Russian launcher in a Russian controlled part of the Ukraine, as verified from every source that isn't owned by the Russian government.Yep. Totally a Ukrainian stealth SU-25 false flag operation/mistaken missile launch/swamp gas. It's even funnier than that. It is a well known fact that at the time of MH-17's downing that FSB and GRU agents riddled all levels of Ukrainian civilian and military command with information leaks straight to Moscow. Yet all the evidence Russia could produce is some badly photoshopped pictures and the moronic theory of a magical SU-25 air to air missile strike. This despite national interests in not being blamed for the shoot down and separate interests in blaming it on Ukraine.Given this fact alone we are left with two possibilities:1. Ukraine's intelligence and military services are in every way superior to Russia's because it could come up with such an elaborate plot, execute it, and hide all the evidence from FSB/GRU agents as well as all the Western intelligence agencies.2. Ukraine didn't shoot down MH-17.So if Russians wish to deny their country is ultimately responsible for shooting down MH-17, they must be prepared to conclude their intelligence services aren't worth a single devalued Ruble. Can't have it any other way.Steve Edited February 21, 2016 by Battlefront.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinophile Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) This constant recurring forum battle with deniers/apologists creates a negative atmosphere around CM:BS. It kinda takes the fun away, for this footstool foot soldier (I cannot claim to be even of armchair rank!) You don't see this level of vehement, aggressive, uncompromising bitchiness over on the WW2 forums! Now granted, those relate to a dead conflict and this is very much a live, albeit static one, but still...Could we create a separate, forum specially for this politically inclined stuff?I'm not suggesting shutting down discourse, more compartmentalizing it away from the general game forum. This could be used as an incentive to keep on topic, otherwise off the thread goes to the Political Bear Pit forum...?It gets very boring very quickly to trawl (not troll ☺) through all the repetitive back & forthto find a nugget of info related to the OP. :-/ Edited February 21, 2016 by kinophile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 It's a fair point. For the most part the history for the other games is already written for those games and the facts are (largely) established. However, I've seen passionate and aggressive threads arguing about how many mm of armor there is on a Tiger tank mantlet and plenty of heated discussions about battles (go to the CMFI forum and suggest Mark Clark isn't so bad to see what I mean :)). Here we have history being written pretty much every day and an active effort to diverge from the truth. So it's understandable that discussions here are not the same.The sad thing is these discussions often start off with a promise of being interesting. Then we get into a cycle of arguing about facts related to the original subject, which quickly spills over into arguing facts that have little to do (directly) with the original subject.Since this thread has run far beyond it's original topic, and by now has little to do with Black Sea at all, I guess it's time to lock it up.Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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