Final Blitzkrieg stream Jan 17

[Macisle]

It's interesting that JuJu's mod uses flat tone silhouettes of the PFs in that squad, with full colour drawings of the small arms, whereas BF's original has "proper pictures" of the AT assets, and flat tone silhouettes of the small arms. Is there a particular reason JuJu chose a different graphical idiom for the squad's supplementary equipment?

To my eye, Juju's PF/special equipment icons are close enough in style (a fully-illustrated cutout in a similar artistic style) to the small arm icons as to be considered matching. I agree with Vergeltungswaffe's comment that Juju's PF icons are sharper at a glance than the stock.

As I study them side by side, I think I might see the logic behind the two styles. With the stock UI, you have the initial decision to go with solid-colored silhouettes for small arms, vehicles, heavy weapons, artillery and such. Most likely, this decision was made to save time and money. However, the presentation style lacks visual impact, so special equipment icons, buttons and some general dashboard items have been tweaked (color contrast, shadow gradients, etc.) to hit the eye harder and thus give an overall balance of impact for the UI as a whole.

With Juju's UI, the focus is on the weapons and equipment. They are lovingly illustrated in exquisite detail, like a fine painted model. They come to the table with huge impact. Therefore, buttons and dashboard elements have been toned down so as not to compete with them. This has a doubly-positive effect. It satisfies the player's desire to see the equipment in detail, while also making the icons sharper and therefore, the UI easier to use as a whole.

If you think about it, the player's eyes spend A LOT of time on those icons. You are constantly checking your units to see what you have available, as well as what the enemy has. With Juju's UI, each time you are rewarded with a beautiful illustration that delivers the full "coolness factor" of what you are looking at. With the stock UI, you have to work harder to identify what the silhouettes are and you don't get to see what you really want -- all that wonderful WWII kit in beautiful, life-like detail.

 

Well vanilla UI isnt awful compared to other games like Achtung Panzer/Graviteam tactics those games have truly awful UI, but vanilla is awful after you have been playing with JUJUs for so long 

Compared to GTOS, pretty much anything looks great. That has to be the ugliest, most user-unfriendly UI I've ever seen, though Arma gives it a run for its money in the user-unfriendliness dept.

Aside from graphic style choice, I actually like the CMx2 UI (and I like the camera controls a lot). I just think that the decision to go with solid-colored weapon/equipment silhouettes should have been a temporary one and that adopting a style like Juju's would actually provide more enhancement to the stock player experience than it might seem (again, think about how often your eyes target those icons and the difference in satisfaction levels).

The only other big problem with the UI, IMO, is that it does not scale for folks with ultra hi-res viewing situations (not me yet).

Edited January 25, 2016 by Macisle

[Vanir Ausf B]

With the stock UI, you have the initial decision to go with solid-colored silhouettes for small arms, vehicles, heavy weapons, artillery and such. Most likely, this decision was made to save time and money. However, the presentation style lacks visual impact,

I have wondered if there is a divide on this between those who played Panzer Blitz or Panzer Leader and those who did not. As one of the former I feel the silhouettes have a je ne sais quoi that illustrated pictures can't replicate, but I can see how that would mean nothing to someone who had never played those games.

[Macisle]

I have wondered if there is a divide on this between those who played Panzer Blitz or Panzer Leader and those who did not. As one of the former I feel the silhouettes have a je ne sais quoi that illustrated pictures can't replicate, but I can see how that would mean nothing to someone who had never played those games.

I didn't have that one, but I still have my original copy of 4th ed. Squad Leader along with a complete set of ASL mounted boards and most of the modules in my closet across the pond. I understand your point and part of me agrees. However, most of me, and the majority of players out there I think, would find illustrated icons ala Juju to be a very positive addition to the stock game. I remember the first time I loaded up CMBN and looked at the stock icons. To my surprise as an ASL/SL fan, I felt disappointment. I also remember the first time I loaded up Juju's icons. I felt happy and satisfied. They were what I wanted. It is not for nothing that modern tactical boardgames mostly use full-color illustrations on their counters. Though the old silhouette wargame counters will always have a special place in my heart, I think most wargamers would have taken full-color illustrated counters back in the day if they could have had them.

The solid-color CMx2 silhouettes may even unconsciously fuel part of the perception among some players that the UI is somehow lacking. If folks were wowed with Juju-style icons right out of the box, they would more likely be starting from a position of being visually impressed with the UI. As things stand, for a large group (the majority?), there is a pang of disappointment when they see the solid silhouettes, meaning they are beginning their engagement with the UI from a position of wanting something visually more engaging.

Anybody who knows my posting history knows I'm one of the guys that tends to drop in and push back when the trolls start throwing out unrealistic expectations. However, the squeaky wheel gets no oil and, now that the trolls are currently vanquished and CMFB is getting extra polish time, I've started dropping a few posts with thoughts that fall into the realm of constructive criticism. All of it only for what it is worth, of course, and none of these are even remotely deal-breakers. -Just stuff that is on my mind or a response to someone else mentioning it first, like in this case.

BF and the core testers always have their hands full, so it is totally understandable and natural that rough edges may stay a long while as they wait to be smoothed. It's also possible that they fall off the radar due to nothing other than the familiarity of seeing them all the time. That's why I posted recently about hit decals and other effects like smoke and tracers. It's been ages since I saw stock hit decals and the recent CMFB livestream by Chris brought the pretty stark contrast between them and Vein's Effects mod to my attention. That got me thinking about areas where minor graphic upgrades (I'm not including UI icons here, BTW) could really enhance the stock experience without large resource investment. Flames have been done (may need more tweaking), but better hit decals would add a lot of visual impact for what looks like not much file work. Smoke might be more work/trouble, but a tweaking to add more definition to the billows ala Vein's Effects would be great. And, most folks seem to prefer the style of Vein's tracers as well.

Replacing the UI silhouettes with illustrations looks to be a very large project if done from scratch, but if they could be bought from Juju or done cheaply enough, then I think they would be worth upgrading for the positive impact they would bring to new players' experience of the game.

CMx2 is going to be the series engine for at least 3-5 more years. With each new title, it seems that the stock vehicle/soldier/building textures are getting better. But an upgrading of the effects group (especially hit decal textures) and, if doable, replacing the UI icon silhouettes with Juju-style illustrations, could really enhance the out-of-the-box experience.

If only one more new graphical update could be gotten in with a foot in the door for the launch of CMFB, my wish would be to make the hit decals really shine -- like they do in Vein's Effects.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Macisle

[Vanir Ausf B]

To each their own. In my view if you want to know what a unit looks like in all it's detail you can just look a few inches above the UI. I would be very disappointed to see the silhouettes disappear.

[Macisle]

To each their own. In my view if you want to know what a unit looks like in all it's detail you can just look a few inches above the UI. I would be very disappointed to see the silhouettes disappear.

Again, I understand where you're coming from. As an ASL/SL player, I would expect myself to tap into the current stock icon design in quite a positive way. However, to my surprise, I do notice a strong difference in satisfaction level when looking at Juju's icons. I like them much better.

Offering eye-pleasing graphical detail where the eye is going to have to spend quite a lot of time each play session sounds like a safer bet than expecting the detail offered in the moments when they are closely zoomed in on units to cover all bases that players might want. Juju's UI is one of the most popular mods for a reason.

Silhouettes would be a good mod option for those that like them and easier to mod than making illustrations. But I think that full-color detailed illustrations ala Juju would be a general crowd pleaser, with a significant punch in terms of pumping up the out-of-the-box experience.

I'll leave off on this now. I just wanted to talk the point a bit because the earlier exchanges about the UI by people didn't offer any useful food for thought -- just a swipe and a dismissal. I really think that a more engaging graphical presentation of the UI, ala Juju's, could help players appreciate all there is to like about the CM UI. While there is always room for improvement, I do actually like the CMx2 UI and quite like the camera controls.

If comparing the stock UI icon graphics to Juju's, I would label them adequate vs inspired.

[sburke]

I had the PL games and I am mostly ambivalent about the UI critiques, however I do use Juju's mod.  I am okay with the base game, but a little tweaking is nice.  For me somewhat the same as tank's a lot buildings.  Though honestly tanks a lot's stuff for me has more impact- it is gonna show in my screenshots whereas the UI won't.

The one thing to keep in mind Macisle is the sheer number of community modders versus how many people BF has and how much work they have to do.  The modders only have to touch what interests them, the BF guy (s) have to touch everything.  How many folks have modded the interior of a tank?  That round coming out of the Sturmmorser is I believe a direct contribution of the interior vehicle modding.

Steve has already commented that he really really wants to hit the UI, I think from their view, why modify it now (assuming they even feel the icons are something they would change).

[Macisle]

I had the PL games and I am mostly ambivalent about the UI critiques, however I do use Juju's mod.  I am okay with the base game, but a little tweaking is nice.  For me somewhat the same as tank's a lot buildings.  Though honestly tanks a lot's stuff for me has more impact- it is gonna show in my screenshots whereas the UI won't.

The one thing to keep in mind Macisle is the sheer number of community modders versus how many people BF has and how much work they have to do.  The modders only have to touch what interests them, the BF guy (s) have to touch everything.  How many folks have modded the interior of a tank?  That round coming out of the Sturmmorser is I believe a direct contribution of the interior vehicle modding.

Steve has already commented that he really really wants to hit the UI, I think from their view, why modify it now (assuming they even feel the icons are something they would change).

I totally understand and agree. I didn't mean they should modify the UI now. I meant that they should look at what will please the most folks when they are ready to hit the UI. I could have worded that better That's what I meant by the UI icons being a bigger project not to be included with what I was saying about the effects.

My comments on the stock CM effects were made with your point about staff vs community modder resources in mind. That's why I "targeted" hit decals specifically. Those really stand out as not making the most of what BF has already coded in, offer high "coolness" reward, appear often in-game, and use a small number of relatively less-detailed graphic files. So, I thought they might be something BF could hit with small effort with nice payoff for presentation of a new, much-anticipated title.

Here's a 2-up with a Vein's hit decal 'shopped (very quickly) onto a still image from the livestream last week. Stock left, modded right:

The larger, more jagged torn metal edges on Vein's decal look much more natural. The stock graphic almost looks like a "beauty mark" on the original barrel texture. Also, the CM engine will rotate the graphic when more than one hit appears. With Vein's, you can notice that easily, making the one graphic look like multiple, individual graphics. With the narrow stock torn metal edges, the rotation effect is hard to notice, making the hits look like copies of the same, rather perfect-looking black circle.

Like I said, smoke and tracer upgrades would be great, too, but those look like they might not be worth the effort at this stage. Maybe next module/release?

Anyhoo, I've had my squeak, so I'll drop this point now, too.

Hey, I need to watch the new video from Chris!

Edited January 26, 2016 by Macisle
Added a picture.

[Baneman]

Again, I understand where you're coming from. As an ASL/SL player, I would expect myself to tap into the current stock icon design in quite a positive way. However, to my surprise, I do notice a strong difference in satisfaction level when looking at Juju's icons. I like them much better.

....

I'm more of a function over form kinda guy, so I prefer Marco's weapon icons - mostly because I find the accompanying ammo-info to be invaluable. ( and a picture is a picture  )

I do use some cherry-picked bits of Juju's too though - mostly his buttons, I think.

[Macisle]

I'm more of a function over form kinda guy, so I prefer Marco's weapon icons - mostly because I find the accompanying ammo-info to be invaluable. ( and a picture is a picture  )

I do use some cherry-picked bits of Juju's too though - mostly his buttons, I think.

Those are another "self-realization surprise" for me. I would expect to love having all that info, but I checked out Marco's stuff way back when and decided I wouldn't really reference the extra info provided, so why add the visual "overhead." I just get a feel for things and go with that. I'm one of those people that a unit encyclopedia functionality would be pretty much wasted on (well, I do read about units in the game manual to get up to speed on them when they are new to me or I haven't used them for awhile). Yet, there was a time when I was pretty up on most of the ASL Rulebook.

It's been a long time since I looked at Marco's icons, but IIRC, the artwork is very good. So, yeah, as long as the quality of the core illustration is on-par with Juju's, having the extra info included is fine with me. I probably just wouldn't use it myself.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Macisle