Semi off topic: Panzer Elite

[Thomas Davie]

It's out. The demo beta ( is that beta demo?)that is. No comments on it yet, but I thought it was relevant mentioning this here because it along with Combat Mission is another 'realistic physics' 3d tactical WW2 game.

Tom

[Guest John Pender]

It looks like no one wants to go near this one, afraid they will seem unloyal I guess It has been interesting so far only real complaint is the interface. At least it gives me someting to take my mind off CM.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Actually, we would welcome any comments. We have chatted with Teut a bit and wish he and his team the best. No loyalty issues here

Although PE and CM aren't even close to being the same kind of game (one is a sim, the other a wargame), there are some similarities.

Steve

[Thomm]

Well, it is good, straight fun !

For now, the problem is: We cannot flame them (nothing to flame them for, anyway), because it is a BETA and things will be fixed. After all, there a no flaws that would make a good game impossible. I am really curious how this public beta philosophy will work out. In my opinion it has strong potential to improve the product ... if Wings is listening.

My personal judgement is influenced by the fact that I am more attracted to "God-like" strategy games than to sims. Much more overview and tactical options make for a far more interesting game, in my opinion. But I think that Panzer Elite will be a good reference when it comes to judge the performance of WW II tanks. After all, the terrain and the vegetation are pretty close to reality.

The obviously scripted sequence of events is very much reminding of a First Person Shooter, as are the DOOM like infantry graphics. The platoon abstraction becomes a problem when you aim at a particular soldier with your MG and another drops dead. On the other hand the vanishing bodies are not a big problem as the animations tell the story. This should work fine with CM, too.

On the other hand it is not reasonable to have a soldier fully in view and get "Infantry hit: nothing" after several MG salvos (The soldier was obviously hiding in building rubble which was not visible).

Besides this, the First Person approach produces the usual problems like low-res textures which look blurry up close. This, too, will be avoided in CM, because one just will not zoom in that much for the sake of overview.

Their building model with the various stages of desctruction is remarkable and adds a lot to the atmosphere !

Fog is divine (and annoying, thus obviously working well) ! On the other hand the explosions are not that spectacular. The particle system has too much of a cotton swab look to it.

The AI's performs nice outflanking manouvers, whereas the infantry behaves rather odd. When it gets really close and personal I believe that they should break up the platoons and control the soldiers individually, but this is of course non-trivial.

But apart from details, Panzer Elite is a rock-solid state-of-the-art product which does not leave a lot of room for truly fundamental improvements, at least for this kind of simulation games and in the present hardware environment.

[kingtiger]

Have used Panzer Commander about as much as I care too. Just not very realistic and far too much idle time.

Panzer ELITE is a lot of fun. I loved using the sight to zero in on the enemy tank. Of course my preferred vehicle was the Tiger, making it easy to eliminate any American Armor. Once the target was in sight the numeric keypad or the mouse could be used to Target the enemy. Smoke is really awesome, and it makes eliminating targets very difficult work. The explosions look very good and the details on the tanks are really quite outstanding. The game is clearly a step above Panzer Commander. That is about all that could be said about my experience. It was easy to complete the mission and eventually, it became very scripted.

Now for my overall negative impressions: 1) I must say the game has a lot of bugs to work out!, 2) enemy American tanks act eratic and don't fire quickly enough or often enough. 3) Why have foot soldiers when they simply appear on the horizon and dance like balerinas (? spelling) across the screen until they are eliminated. 4) Panic sucks, they panic and run forever, you need to drive full speed for a long long long time to find the missing little panicked devils. I really hat that. 5) No concept of when the mission is complete or what the mission is. It really would be nice to know why I am about to put my life on the line inside a rolling coffin. Well not really in the case of the Tiger. 6) Spotting is in the game and a nice audible alert indicates that the enemy has been spotted, but then you need to go to external view if not already there and then hit "T" to target and then a bracket appears letting me know what it is and where. I can't even see the enemy on the screen and the AI is telling me exactly what it is and where (TOTALLY Unrealistic). 7) I cannot remember if the game gave any indication of range. The shells are supposed to arch ya know! 8) Hedgegrow does slow the vehicle, but stays up after running it over.

SUMMARY: I really can't justify $40 for it, but it is really cool. I base the value of the game, not by how cool it is, but on how it captures my attention. I can sit and play Panzer General II and Peoples General for 100's and 100's of hours. I could only play Panzer Commander for 20 hours total. Never did figure it out. PANZER GENERAL 3D is out and it really sucks bad. It kind-of reminds me of a small-time carnival game in a small tent. The game I remember was one with vehicles in 3-D (plastic and metal) under a large glass bubble and they just kind-of cruise around. But in the case of PANZER GENERAL 3D, the game just plain sucks really bad. It is really difficult to move planes to the correct spot. 3-D did not help Panzer General.

You guys better make Combat Mission the best game ever. I really can't go on much longer without a really good game.

ALSO, will you please put in support for Bump-mapping and dual-head support. It would be nice to be able to use all the real estate available with Matrox Millenium G400 Max board and by supporting dual head and environmental bump mapping it would further separate Combat Mission from all the rest. Matrox mentions the cards ability to provide awesome detail for shell damage and scratching on metal tank surfaces.

[dano6]

I have played the Panzer Elite beta and would have to say that it is by far the best tank sim (WW2 or Modern) made to date. Even in its beta form, I have actually played PE more than I have played my PITTIFUL copy of Panzer Commander. What everybody needs to remember is that the beta is just the beta. That the bugs found by the beta testing will be fixed, and the game will be excellent.

What I have to say is that both BTS and wings(Teut) have great customer support and communication. This is what is going to make both of these games great. Both companies listen to their audiences and try and make their products as "real" as possible. It gives me great pleasure to be able to intelligently argue a point with the game producers whether or not my ideas are implemented. I believe that everything is a learning process and communication is the key. Anyone that thinks they know everything actually knows little or nothing. Software companies that fall to the lowest common denominator, make horrible "flash-bang" products such as CC3 (sorry bad reference).

Anyways back to Panzer Elite: The beta shows the potential of the final product. As for kintigers complaints, most options were deleted for simplicity of the beta.

1. Gunnery on the beta is set at "doom" beginners option. That means that there is no drop in velocity or arc to the round. The final version of the game will include a full gunnery realism setting that will make all other tank sims look elementary.

2. The scenarios in the beta are not scenarios, they are instant action situations. That is why they have very limited goals and purposes. Remember just a beta.

3. Spotting problems, my problem is just the opposite as kingtiger's. It is difficult to target something that you as commander see but no one else does. As for the spotting, if you have a radio, as the beta gives by default to all, tank commanders talk to one another, and give locations of enemies. I feel that this is realistic. Also you have to be looking in that direction to initially bring up the yellow marks on the target. Many people, including myself have complained about the spotting and there are going to be some changes made.

4. As for infantry, the US type was fairly ineffective against tanks, especially tigers, so doesnt in figure they would panic and hide when being shot to pieces.

5. As for my complaints the vegetation having a surface as hard as a rock wall and blocking AP shots is my biggest complaint, but this will be fixed in the first beta patch.

As far as bugs go there doesn't seem to be that many for a beta test.

Now for plopping down my $40, hell yea I'm going to. This is by far the most realistic tank sim ever. The multi-player is awesome. Just got to love going tiger hunting.

Comparing CM and PE is not possible, they are 2 totally different types of games. But what I see is that they will compliment one another. CM is for those times that you want to play the best strategy wargame PE is for the times that you want to see if you could actually command a tank and survive in a virtual battlefield. I recommend for everyone to check out Panzer Elite. Sims are not for everyone, just like strategy wargames aren't for everyone either, but PE is the best tank sim out there and well worth the look. But just remember that the Panzer Elite beta is just a limited beta, and only shows the potential of the final product. And as for flaming wings simulations for their public beta, that is what there response email sites are for. They listen to what their customers say just like BTS does.

And anyone who thinks that riding around in a tiger is safe, should come play me in a MP game, you will be wondering why your damn tiger keeps blowing up.

My summer is spent waiting for both of these great games to finally make it to my CDROM drive.

dano6

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And anyone who thinks that riding around in a tiger is safe, should come play me in a MP game, you will be wondering why your damn tiger keeps blowing up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe... wait until you see what happens in CM. It is even worse, since we emphasize combined arms to a much larger extent than PE does. Tigers and King Tigers are dead meat if they aren't handled well. OTOH, in the hands of a good commander, in the right situation, with good luck, the Allies are going to be sent packing for sure!

Steve

[Simon Fox]

Oh yea eat this WP sucker!

Oops, not in the game

[kingtiger]

Sorry for slamming Panzer Elite, but I really expected more.

Danao6 ... I agree with all your comments (#1-3 above), but if the American infantry was ineffective against german Tanks, why would they come charging over a hill and running towards me with no artillery or armor in site? I know, it's just BETA. But I have to believe based on my limited experience with Panzer Elite that it is ALPHA, not Beta.

However, I will post no more negative feedback about Panzer Elite and will only suggest improvements and point out positives. Being constructive is always a better approach.

BTS I look forward to facing a real threat within the coffers of my rolling Tiger coffin in CM. Possibly that will include battleship artillery so I'll need to exit the Tank and dig a pit under my Tiger just to live.

[Pak40]

"Possibly that will include battleship artillery so I'll need to exit the Tank and dig a pit under my Tiger just to live. "

judging from the crater size of 16 in guns, you'd better dig pretty far under that Tiger

[Lee]

Well, in CM the biggest guns available for artillery

support are 14 in. But I hear they make real large

craters, too. Hope you have a good shovel, don't

hit your head on the underside of the tiger on your

way down.

[Los]

I wish somebody would make a game called Infanty Platoon Simulator. It would look like this:

You would control one infnatry platoon (a company would be better as an expansion!). The game has two phases. Planning and preparation and then execution. In the P&P phase you sit through a mission briefing then plan out everything to the gnat's ass. Of course you are managing the platoon roster, leader development etc. Planning would follow the standard Troop Leading porcedures.

You could conduct recon or request recon info to help your plan along, set contingency plans etc etc. This would be somewhat similar to what happens in Rainbow Six but on a much more detailed level. You can have your sqauds rehearse actions at the objectives of immdeiate action drills (which would allow them to "LEARN" the SOPs youw nat them to.)

Then you go to the execution phase. The view now shifts from a standard wargamers view to a FPS view. You Are the platoon leader. You move out give orders on the radio of via hand and arm signals if you have LOS to your subordinate leasers or by running up to them and telling them. You want a map view? Pull our your crumpled map and look at it, matching it with what you see around you (unless you ahve the modern/post modern version with GPS).

**** hits the fan. WTF? The squads have to report in direction and nature of fire. You can give general orders to squads but eth squads do everything themselves unless you choose to accompany them and personally direct them. (Like in command mode near an MG team you point at the team, that's in position, click to select (from your won eyes mind you) and click where you want them to fire, etc).

Other fun tasks include calling in indirect ifre, conslidating and reorganizing after various events etc. In other words you perform a PL's actions through his eyes. Fatigue and confusion is modelled. Graphics:top notch. No God more or anything like that though the game has a replay function where you could view everything (AFTER the escenario is over) ala CM.

If you wanted to get fancy you could have a option where you could jump to the various leaders or even differnt guys in the platoon and partake in the simple firing action (platoon leaders don't suually have enough time to do this when they're running the platoon.

As the platoon leader, the more you expose yourself, or run to your leaders for face to face orders (which translates to the squad having a higher chance of doing exactly what you say) then your mission has a higher chance of being successful. But of course you have a higher chance of getting killed!

A campaign could go like this. Your platoon/company gets orders to attack an enemy strongpoint. The first scenario might ne a simple recon platoon with a squad to gather information which would then be available in the next scenarios planning phase, thus increasing the likelyhood of success.

For the next scenario, the assault. You may be given attachments to help out (an engineer squad to breach obstacles), some mortars, company level MGs or even tanks. Indirect fire, etc.

After that maybe a mission to hold the objectives (losses carried over from previous mission. (and did you plan for follow up resupply?)

ANyway you get the gist. This could actually make a useful training tool. Oh well I can dream...

Los

[CRourke]

Los, I've always wanted to see that too. I'll make a deal with you.. if one of us wins the lottery, we agree to pay someone to make that game.

Of course the first person perspective would make things pretty hard.. I imagine its hard enough in real life.. controlling your body with a keyboard can only make things harder. And you'd have to put a lot of faith in your sub-commanders.. once again, the AI issue rears its ugly head. Unless of course you replaced them all with humans in a multiplayer environment.

Actually the part I really like is the idea of a detailed planning/scouting phase before the battle. Too many wargames just throw you right into the start of the battle, as if your old CO had just had a heart attack and you've just assumed command

Chris

[Greg Deych]

Los,

You get some of those features in "101st Airborne". The original had some issues that slowed down gameplay a bit too much (turn based slogging across multiple map sectors), but there is a sequel on the way, called "All American", about 82nd at Bastogne which should be pretty good. If you haven't heard about it, check out some of the reviews.

[Doug Beman]

Los, CRourke, somebody already made a game just like that. It's called "US Army."

Unfortunately, due to certain gameplay issues only the very brave and skilled are involved in this one.

By far the most common complaint that casual gamers have with "US Army" is that the it cannot be restarted should the player be killed. Department of Defense planners are working on a solution to this one, and promise a fix for V 2.03 (would have been sooner but they devote a LOT of time to reworking the code that deals with killing the enemy in the first place). However, some person named "God" (it is suspected that this is just one of the corporate personas of Bill Gates) keeps cancelling each new patch, insisting that once you're dead, you're dead.

More on this later.

(for the record, I was making no digs about the US Army, or the DoD, or "God" or anybody who has anything to do with any of these things. Just covering my butt in case this forum turns into a typical newsgroup)

DjB

[Los]

Doug,

I've played that game, it's been on my hard drive for the past 21 years Problem is that's not too much fun when you are actually playing it. It's only fun to talk about after the scenario is over and you're back at hoome with a beer in your hand.

And the problem is my knees aren't what they're used to be so I'm looking for something a litle more virtual. ALso the leaving home (w/a 2 year old kid) also detracts from the experience. So this version could be played in your own house of all places!

And yes I've seen plenty bitten in the ass by that fatal restart bug you've mentioned. Even in training mode!

RE: That 82d airborne game is that legit? I didn't tryout the 101 game (something about top down view) What's the scale? sqauds? ala CC?

Los

[fatherof4]

I have 101st airborne and really like it. I just took East Front II off of my hard drive so I could put 101 back on it.

Go to www.wargamer.com/101/ for a more thorough explanation of gameplay.

The developers (ISI) did a real good job supporting the game but like so many other wargames, the publisher (Empire) never really got behind it so it has withered on the vine. I guess from the publisher's standpoint, they probably didn't sell enough units.

Last I saw a few months ago, ISI wanted to use the same engine for a Bulge game but they couldn't sell it to a publisher.

I plan to while away what little free time I have with 101 until Combat Mission comes out.

[CRourke]

I played the 101 demo.. I loved how deep the game was.. very well thought out. But I have alot of trouble with turn based squad level games.. sure that sorta play might work on the division level, but it really doesn't work for me when your pushing around individual men.

If anyone out there played xcom 3, I thought that was a great example of what can be done at squad level with a wego engine. If only it was set in ww2.

I think ISI was considering pausable realtime as an option in the sequel.

Chris

[Los]

BTW I dl'd the PE demo and really like it (only played it for about 3 hours). Has a great feel, interface graphics and sounds. The terrain is nice even if it is 2d sprites for trees and stuff. It reminds me somewhat fo a fun game that came out years ago, available only by internet. (I was even a beta tester on it but for the life of me can't remember the name now) In that game after you set your strategy you could jump into ANY vehicle or individual soldier on the map and fight it out. Basically Panzer Elite in 2d. Was fun creeping around through the woods.

Anyway I digress. I like the terrain in this game, lots of folds and other terrain totake to take advanatge of. Yes you can micro manage the crewstations of use a simple interface from the commanders hatch or even outside the tank to order your vehicle and the rest of the platoon to do stuff. (Note outside views are option-limited by the server in MP which is cool). Personally I haven't experienced any crashes yet. (PII 450 w/ Pure 3dII and stb V4400). I find it easier to use than M1TPII and it gives me a better sense of being in a real battle. (Or at least the kind we watched in those ww2 movies)

This combined with CM will both make fine additions to my harddrive.

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 08-04-99).]