Looking forwats on ze Ostfront

[17pounder]

What can we expect the next module to represent in this game?

My money is on winter for starters, just because we've already got summer. I'm going to predict winter 1942-43 in the sector of Army Group South. This will also introduce the SS to the game and recreate Manstein's miracle at Kharkov as well as the winter fighting around Belgorod. Of course a certain city on the Volga will be represented too! Be nice to get some earlier vehicles in the game too. 

What do you reckon they've got planned?

 

Edited November 19, 2015 by 17pounder
text error

[kohlenklau]

There is a thread(s) around here somewhere that explains the BFC approach.

Cliff Notes version...

For Ost Front: Each roughly summer to the next spring timeframe is a family with its own modules. Once complete they go back a year and do a new entirely separate family.

So, now summer 44 so next will be CMRT "part 2" which will recoup any new winter goodies from the Bulge project and get us through the 44/45 winter and maybe out to Spring '45 and Berlin?

But possibly there will be a CMRT Part 3 to get us all the way to the end of the war on the Ost front. I don't know.

THEN in the future they hatch Ost Front Family #2 and it starts in summer '43 with Zitadelle, another module to link it through winter 43/44 and on to pre-Bagration. 

Get it?

Sort of like this movie!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Curious_Case_of_Benjamin_Button_(film)

 

Welcome to the fun!

 

 

Edited November 19, 2015 by kohlenklau

[17pounder]

Interesting, though will be quite similar to what we already have? Not sure I'd want to pay for essentially more of the same, even with snow and a Christmas tree!  I remember CNBB - what a game that was. Kursk will be worth adding for sure as it's a very significant operation and also adds some new vehicles. But winter 1944-45 is basically CMRT with some snow, and not a lot because it was a mild winter too!

[kohlenklau]

From a previous post of mine from March 2015 on this development schedule topic.

I am 50 now and it seems 7 human years is 1 dog year. No, that is the wrong math!

 

3"HM" WW2 historical months = 12-18-24-36-(?)"RM" real months development/release BFC? Help me take a stab at a number....

 

CMBN released April 2011 <June 44>.  Over 2 years later October 2013 and we got <Sept '44 Market-Garden>. Nothing into October 44 yet, No Aachen, No Bulge yet.

CMFI released August 2012 <Sicily July 43>. May 2013 we get GL and now we have out to <June 44>. Nothing new.

CMRT released April 2014 for <Summer-June 44 Bagration>. Almost a year later in real time. Nothing new....

Going back to Barbarossa June 41 from June 44 will be 36HM, Crazy Reverse Chronology! So I predict as much as 144 RM = 12 years.

You're right. I will not be 60. I will probably be 62 and can claim social security just as I pre-order... 

[womble]

Interesting, though will be quite similar to what we already have? Not sure I'd want to pay for essentially more of the same, even with snow and a Christmas tree!  I remember CNBB - what a game that was. Kursk will be worth adding for sure as it's a very significant operation and also adds some new vehicles. But winter 1944-45 is basically CMRT with some snow, and not a lot because it was a mild winter too!

It's a very similar mode of development to the three older CMx2 families (Shock Force, Battle for Normandy and Fortress Italy). The first expansion might not even have winter, just minor nation TO&Es, lend lease equipment, TO&Es and terrain objects and maps and campaigns for regions other than the area explicitly covered by the first part in the family, specialist units like Gebirgsjaeger, or any airborne troops not present in the base product, which is what CMBN:CWF and all the CMSF expansions did. MG expanded the timeline by a whole entire month, whereas Gustav Line expanded Italy into the winter as well as adding a whole bunch of non-US TO&E.

Get used to paying for it, or not having it. At some point, not having it won't be as much of a bind for HvH, when the coding for "You can use what you've bought even if your opponent hasn't" gets done and put live, but you'll generally be missing large chunks of content under the current model, if you don't want to pay for the expansions (as is your right).

CMBB very nearly broke BFC. They will not be including so much content in any future single product, not to mention that the detail in the content produced for the CMx2 engine is at least an order of magnitude better and consequently more time consuming to produce.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

I would certainly like to see a 1943 game, perhaps actually starting in early 1943 (3rd Kharkov) and Kursk/Orel/Mius River/4th Kharkov coming in the first release together with the Waffen SS who were central to these battles. The retreat to the Dnieper and the struggle for the river line int the spring of 1944 can come in a later module

[kohlenklau]

My opinion: early '43 will be in Ost Front family #3 probably module 1 or 2. Think of 2022 or 2023 or 2024. Like a couple US presidential terms from now +/-.

On a more positive note, somebody in that other thread did also express a desire to see Kharkov early '43 and I said my heart felt opinion. Basically, simulate now with what we have and press forward to enjoy it if you can do any modding or whatnot.

When were those battles?..Feb '43 and a few months after? With snow right? That is TWO families away. I think you have a long wait. And I think I could be almost 60 before we see, if we ever see, Barbarossa June '41.

Life is short. I recommend you try and simulate/substitute and do Kharkov with the next module of CMRT. What do we not have that you need on your Kharkov CM battlefields? 

[17pounder]

There is of course one last German offensive in the east, presuming winter 1944-45 is the way this game goes; Hungary and Budapest. Not much snow though - mostly slush and mud! But at least it would get the SS involved, also of course Fallschirmjäger were rushed east to try and plug the gap after Bagration, so some nice new OOB's. Yep I'll probably buy it after all !

[jtsjc1]

There is of course one last German offensive in the east, presuming winter 1944-45 is the way this game goes; Hungary and Budapest. Not much snow though - mostly slush and mud! But at least it would get the SS involved, also of course Fallschirmjäger were rushed east to try and plug the gap after Bagration, so some nice new OOB's. Yep I'll probably buy it after all !

Operation Spring Awakening with some heavy metal.

[kohlenklau]

CMRT date range ends at 30 Sep but in my CMPzC Nyakleves Operation we fudge that to pretend it is mid-October to portray the Panzer Battles on the Hungarian plains.

23rd Panzer Division and sPzAbt 503 against the 23rd Army Soviet hordes...

 

 

[LUCASWILLEN05]

My opinion: early '43 will be in Ost Front family #3 probably module 1 or 2. Think of 2022 or 2023 or 2024. Like a couple US presidential terms from now +/-.

On a more positive note, somebody in that other thread did also express a desire to see Kharkov early '43 and I said my heart felt opinion. Basically, simulate now with what we have and press forward to enjoy it if you can do any modding or whatnot.

It was probably me  Personally I would prefer the 3rd Kharkov and the later stages of the 1942-3 winter offensive n the same module as Kursk. We cannot simulate this now because important tanks such as the Panzer III are not yet available. What I am suggesting is that the Kursk game family actually starts in January 1943 and ends in May/June 1944

Hopefully we will see this much earlier than 2022! :-) It is one of the most iterestng phases of the war in Russia

 

[LUCASWILLEN05]

There is of course one last German offensive in the east, presuming winter 1944-45 is the way this game goes; Hungary and Budapest. Not much snow though - mostly slush and mud! But at least it would get the SS involved, also of course Fallschirmjäger were rushed east to try and plug the gap after Bagration, so some nice new OOB's. Yep I'll probably buy it after all !

There was also Operation Konrad and some quite significant battles over the autumn and winter of 1944 - 45

[17pounder]

Yes and there is a likely chance that Soviet lend lease equipment from UK/USA will show up on their roster; think I'd rather stick to Russian vehicles though....reckon they should have supplied us - those big gun beasties would have been mighty useful in Goodwood and Epsom !!

[kohlenklau]

You've got to know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, Know when to walk away, know when to run. You never count your money when you're sittin' at the table, There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done.

 

The point is that if you can't wait til 2022 or later, then take things into your own hands and create a Kharkov '43 mod now. 

Me and a few buddies made a CMFI GL Bulge 44 mod a year or more back and I am glad I did. Perfect? No. But it is still being used now and ain't too shabby. And we still don't have the actual Bulge game yet.

Edited November 20, 2015 by kohlenklau

[17pounder]

Cool.

[Bulletpoint]

Operation Spring Awakening with some heavy metal.

I'm not too keen on playing these "doomed operations". Seems Spring Awakening was just a final moronic charge into well prepared killing zones. Not sure how much fun that would be as a scenario or campaign.

[kohlenklau]

@LUCASWILLEN05  If you want to become the project team leader of a Kharkov mod, I can serve as an advisor. It is doable. Greatcoats, gloves, helmets with SS runes, Soviet quilted effect on their uniforms, snow on the ground, snow on the roof of some buildings, get some vehicles modded to grey paint scheme or whatever needed, also with 1st SS insignia (the key in the shield).  that "Adolf Hitler Platz" road sign...

You would be a true hero among the forum.

...especially if the next CMRT module doesn't deliver snow!

[kohlenklau]

I have had help from some really nice people here at the forum to try and make something. I wasn't always successful I will admit. But I have many to thank for the projects that did make it out to daylight. Aris, umlaut, juju, benparks, Vein, Folkie, Waclaw, Sequoia, mjkerner, noob, ugggh I forget so many other names...

The point is that CMRT Kharkov 43 could be a reality. If the next CMRT module is not winter equipped... I say we do it.

Edited November 22, 2015 by kohlenklau

[kohlenklau]

..and for proper credit...that map is Seinfeld Rules' "Amongst the Ruins" which I think makes for a nice Kharkov test bed....

[Aragorn2002]

CMRT Kharkov 43! Wouldn't that be splendid?

[17pounder]

Most definitely would be. The war was so much more in the balance in the winter of 1942-43; there was a still a serious doubt over which side would be victorious, whereas by the winter of 1944-45 it was just the final death throes of the 3rd Reich. The final year in the east was really a succession of very similar operations - patched together German battle-groups facing massive Russian artillery bombardments followed by unstoppable (mostly) waves of expendable Infantry and tanks, the whole lot supported by wave after wave of ground attack aircraft. Ok occasionally there were local successes thanks to elite units acting as fire brigades, but essentially it was one way traffic. Yes there were a handful of Hitler-inspired nutty offensives hardly worth the name, but nothing like the Ardennes offensive in the West. 

I must admit I would MUCH rather go backwards in the war than forwards to winter 44-45. Ok of course I will buy it regardless, but if BF were to break the mould and do Kharkov, Kursk or Stalingrad next instead, then it would be mega exciting. I also think they'd sell a heck more units too, after all those battles are far more well know generally. I'd of thought put CM with those names say on steam, and people would buy. Once they'd got into CM I'm pretty sure most would realise just what quality this series really is, and compensate BF for the slight change in direction.   

[kohlenklau]

@17pounder  I apologize for slight hijacking of your thread. I will create a new thread for a CMRT Charkow '43 Mod project. Best wishes and so long!

[JonS]

I'm not too keen on playing these "doomed operations". Seems Spring Awakening was just a final moronic charge into well prepared killing zones. Not sure how much fun that would be as a scenario or campaign.

Well, that depends entirely on what you chose to feature in the scenario or campaign. Sure; at the strat or grand-operational level Op S-A was doomed (from the German POV, obviously. From the Russian POV it was happy funtimes, which is as good a reason as any to make a scenario set there) but that doesn't mean that every single company or battalion level action the Germans conducted was doomed to failure. Also, it's kind-of the point with wargaming to take a situation and see if you can do better.

 

However your wider point stands (for example; why bother with the 1940 campaign in France? It was over-determined from the outset in favour of Germany. There's nothing interesting to be found there, right?), which is exactly why I am increasingly drawn to making semi-historical or plausible-fictional scenarios, rather than trying to recreate a specific, particular engagement.

[Bulletpoint]

Well, that depends entirely on what you chose to feature in the scenario or campaign. Sure; at the strat or grand-operational level Op S-A was doomed (from the German POV, obviously. From the Russian POV it was happy funtimes, which is as good a reason as any to make a scenario set there) but that doesn't mean that every single company or battalion level action the Germans conducted was doomed to failure. Also, it's kind-of the point with wargaming to take a situation and see if you can do better.

 

However your wider point stands (for example; why bother with the 1940 campaign in France? It was over-determined from the outset in favour of Germany. There's nothing interesting to be found there, right?), which is exactly why I am increasingly drawn to making semi-historical or plausible-fictional scenarios, rather than trying to recreate a specific, particular engagement.

Well, I don't disagree, but at least with France 1940, the French army was intact at the outset, and their industrial base and infrastructure was running, so the result was maybe not as given as for the Germans in the last desperate and insane days of the war. In hindsight, we now know the French would lose.

[JonS]

Yes, exactly. And 'now' is when we're playing wargames. Similarly, at the time the outcome of Op S-A was unknown.