Can troops in Bunkers Surrender?

[A Canadian Cat]

Yeah, all the levels are always there in the c2 list. If you delete the company HQ and just keep the platoon I believe you will find that the off map company HQ and Battalion HQ will both still be in the C2 list.

[MOS:96B2P]

 

Yes this.

The anti-tank team in the example has no C2 at all.  Not to anybody since all three boxes are empty.  (Where close, distant, radio would show)  9th Company has C2 to 3rd Battalion.  If that COC light turns red it might be when 9th Company is moving.  It should go back to green after 9th Company HQ goes firm for awhile.  

Yes I think the game mechanics probably keep the Battalion HQ in the loop to run the C2 part of the game.  That would make sense.  

Edit:  Okay still learning the new forum quotes.  I screwed that up.  I was agreeing with Ian and then was ninja'ed by Ian.  

Edited October 12, 2015 by MOS:96B2P

[RockinHarry]

Thanks (all), got it now.  I´d never had a problem grasping the C2 link panel (visual, voice, radio), but the COC panel just was somewhat obscure to me, as they also do not always correlate to each other.

In example just lately I had a broken german squad routing into a building, which also was occupied by the Plt. parent Coy HQ unit. The Plt. HQ was just out of command range of both units, the Coy. HQ and the broken squad, as I could see from both the C2 link and COC info panels. The german squad then rallied and both visual and voice icons appeared in C2 link panel. With the rallied squad selected, in COC info panel there was neither green light for the Plt, nor Coy HQ, so I was wondering about the reference of the C2 link panel data. Clicking the icons, gots me to the Plt.HQ, despite it beeing red light in COC, as well as having a dark line "visible command link" (squad -> Plt. HQ). How´s that to be interpreted? 

[Bulletpoint]

Thanks (all), got it now.  I´d never had a problem grasping the C2 link panel (visual, voice, radio), but the COC panel just was somewhat obscure to me, as they also do not always correlate to each other.

In example just lately I had a broken german squad routing into a building, which also was occupied by the Plt. parent Coy HQ unit. The Plt. HQ was just out of command range of both units, the Coy. HQ and the broken squad, as I could see from both the C2 link and COC info panels. The german squad then rallied and both visual and voice icons appeared in C2 link panel. With the rallied squad selected, in COC info panel there was neither green light for the Plt, nor Coy HQ, so I was wondering about the reference of the C2 link panel data. Clicking the icons, gots me to the Plt.HQ, despite it beeing red light in COC, as well as having a dark line "visible command link" (squad -> Plt. HQ). How´s that to be interpreted? 

Higher level headquarters can serve as commanders for lover level troops, if they are close together. So, your broken squad was rallied by the Coy HQ.

You can also use this if one of your platoons lose its leaders, by rushing out the company leader to take command. Doing so is risky though, because you don't want to lose your company commander. But if you keep the XO team back in safety, they will take over if the company leader is killed.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Bulletpoint

[RockinHarry]

Higher level headquarters can serve as commanders for lover level troops, if they are close together. So, your broken squad was rallied by the Coy HQ.

You can also use this if one of your platoons lose its leaders, by rushing out the company leader to take command. Doing so is risky though, because you don't want to lose your company commander. But if you keep the XO team back in safety, they will take over if the company leader is killed.

Yes, that was my basic assumption, also described in the game manual. What´s not in the manual is, that this out of COC influence (rallying) of units by higher HQ, isn´t reflected by info from both the C2 link and COC info panels. It also remains unclear why the rallied squad has C2 link voice and visual contact to Plt. HQ, although it actually doesn´t have (too far away). Both Coy HQ and the squad are in the same AS (building) and thus equally far away from Plt HQ, which has no link to both these units.

So how can the squad info panels show contradicting info, with C2 link showing "visual" and "voice", but in COC red light (to Plt HQ AND Coy HQ) and with visible command lines (ALT-Z) beeing dark for No Contact? I´m aware that the squad is not a team directly subordinated to the Coy HQ, so won´t ever show a green light anyway, but what about no green light for Plt HQ?

I just can assume this is another game abstraction that tells the "Visual" and "voice" type C2 link  actually is to/from Coy HQ, just abstractly passed over from Plt.HQ as surrogate.

Anyway, I never put any attention to the COC info, as I always get the appropiate info from a units C2 link panel and its clickable icons. And visible command lines. COC is good to see just the connections between the various HQ´s within a particular chain and I´ve yet to find good use for that information. Think it´s good for seeing at a glance whether one can call Arty and whether info sharing between HQ´s is active and such.

[A Canadian Cat]

It also remains unclear why the rallied squad has C2 link voice and visual contact to Plt. HQ, although it actually doesn´t have (too far away). Both Coy HQ and the squad are in the same AS (building) and thus equally far away from Plt HQ, which has no link to both these units.

It does not have voice and visual to the platoon HQ. 

I am not 100% clear on what you are calling what so I'm going to refer to the CMBN v3.00 manual page 31 and use those terms to we can be clear.  There are two relevant sections of the Unit Info panel to this discussion: the C2 Link (#9 in the diagram) this is how and if the unit is in contact to a valid command unit (notice I said a valid command unit and not their superior command unit) and the Chain of Command (#7 in the diagram).

Considering the squad that needed rallying.  In its C2 Link boxes it showed that it was in command via voice and visual contact.  That command was being provided by the Company HQ that was right there with them.  Therefore the squad is in command at this moment because they are in contact with a void command unit.

Considering the chain of command indicators.  The platoon was to far away from the company CO and out of radio contact therefore the chain of command is broken and you get a red light.  If the company CO cannot contact the Battalion HQ then that light will be red too.

So when you have the squad selected you can see its command status plus the integrity of the chain of command above it but they really are separate things.

[RockinHarry]

It does not have voice and visual to the platoon HQ. 

I am not 100% clear on what you are calling what so I'm going to refer to the CMBN v3.00 manual page 31 and use those terms to we can be clear.  There are two relevant sections of the Unit Info panel to this discussion: the C2 Link (#9 in the diagram) this is how and if the unit is in contact to a valid command unit (notice I said a valid command unit and not their superior command unit) and the Chain of Command (#7 in the diagram).

Considering the squad that needed rallying.  In its C2 Link boxes it showed that it was in command via voice and visual contact.  That command was being provided by the Company HQ that was right there with them.  Therefore the squad is in command at this moment because they are in contact with a void command unit.

Considering the chain of command indicators.  The platoon was to far away from the company CO and out of radio contact therefore the chain of command is broken and you get a red light.  If the company CO cannot contact the Battalion HQ then that light will be red too.

So when you have the squad selected you can see its command status plus the integrity of the chain of command above it but they really are separate things.

Hey Ian

I´m speaking of both C2 link (#9) and COC (#7) and particular info correlating to a single unit.

If that mentioned squad shows both "visual" and "voice" icons in C2 link (#9) and I (left mouse button) click these icons, I´m taken to the HQ (it gets selected automatically) that currently provides the communication link by means of Visual & Voice, as indicated by these icons. In the mentioned case, clicking the C2 link icons gets me to the parent Plt.HQ, which is normally correct, if it´s in (command) range. But it is NOT, as indicated by the red light in COC (#7) for the squads Plt HQ entry. Also the dark color "command lines" (ALT-Z) between the squad and its Plt HQ indicate, that the squad is out of command range to its Plt HQ. Now I take it as conflicting data between C2 link (#9) and COC (#7), with C2 link telling that it´s in command range to Plt HQ and COC indicates it is NOT.

That´s my main assumption just based on operating the game. Some info is NOT in the V3.0 CMBN game manual.

1. Clicking the icons (if any) in the C2 link panel of a selected unit, selects and camera moves to his parent HQ automatically. (?)

2. Temporary command of HQ´s distributed to not directly subordinated units (Coy HQ ---> Squad), is not beeing reflected by info in both the COC (#7) and C2 link (#9) panels. (?)

So the icons (visual near + voice) in the squads C2 link panel, rather indicate that these icons rather relate to the Coy HQ, which is in the same action spot, and NOT to the Plt.HQ which is apparently out of range. This (temporary) command connection link to Coy HQ is not properly displayed in neither C2 link, nor COC. Not a big problem, as one can simply assume that this situation works abstractly, as described in the game manual on page 62.

"Higher HQs may fulfill this role only to a limited extent.  If a squad or team is out 
of contact with its immediate superior (usually a platoon HQ) then its company 
or battalion HQ may provide voice and close visual contact, but not radio or dis-
tant-visual contact.  This simulates that a higher HQ can’t babysit a large number 
of units more than one level lower in the organization, and it means that higher 
HQs can’t be used in a gamey way to make platoon HQs unnecessary, but they 
can step in and provide command-and-control in a limited radius in emergency 
situations."

Think it´s all clear now.

[Bulletpoint]

Hey Ian

I´m speaking of both C2 link (#9) and COC (#7) and particular info correlating to a single unit.

If that mentioned squad shows both "visual" and "voice" icons in C2 link (#9) and I (left mouse button) click these icons, I´m taken to the HQ (it gets selected automatically) that currently provides the communication link by means of Visual & Voice, as indicated by these icons. In the mentioned case, clicking the C2 link icons gets me to the parent Plt.HQ, which is normally correct, if it´s in (command) range. But it is NOT, as indicated by the red light in COC (#7) for the squads Plt HQ entry. Also the dark color "command lines" (ALT-Z) between the squad and its Plt HQ indicate, that the squad is out of command range to its Plt HQ. Now I take it as conflicting data between C2 link (#9) and COC (#7), with C2 link telling that it´s in command range to Plt HQ and COC indicates it is NOT.

That´s my main assumption just based on operating the game. Some info is NOT in the V3.0 CMBN game manual.

1. Clicking the icons (if any) in the C2 link panel of a selected unit, selects and camera moves to his parent HQ automatically. (?)

2. Temporary command of HQ´s distributed to not directly subordinated units (Coy HQ ---> Squad), is not beeing reflected by info in both the COC (#7) and C2 link (#9) panels. (?)

So the icons (visual near + voice) in the squads C2 link panel, rather indicate that these icons rather relate to the Coy HQ, which is in the same action spot, and NOT to the Plt.HQ which is apparently out of range. This (temporary) command connection link to Coy HQ is not properly displayed in neither C2 link, nor COC. Not a big problem, as one can simply assume that this situation works abstractly, as described in the game manual on page 62.

"Higher HQs may fulfill this role only to a limited extent.  If a squad or team is out 
of contact with its immediate superior (usually a platoon HQ) then its company 
or battalion HQ may provide voice and close visual contact, but not radio or dis-
tant-visual contact.  This simulates that a higher HQ can’t babysit a large number 
of units more than one level lower in the organization, and it means that higher 
HQs can’t be used in a gamey way to make platoon HQs unnecessary, but they 
can step in and provide command-and-control in a limited radius in emergency 
situations."

Think it´s all clear now.

I think you might be overthinking this. As I understand it, the C2 icons (eye, shouting mouth, etc.) just show that someone is in command. The COC icons (the green/red dots) show if the unit is within its normal Chain of Command or not.

So, in your example, the shouting mouth means that the Coy commander is shouting orders at the poor privates, and the red blip indicates that the privates are not in contact with their platoon commander.

 

[RockinHarry]

I think you might be overthinking this. As I understand it, the C2 icons (eye, shouting mouth, etc.) just show that someone is in command. The COC icons (the green/red dots) show if the unit is within its normal Chain of Command or not.

So, in your example, the shouting mouth means that the Coy commander is shouting orders at the poor privates, and the red blip indicates that the privates are not in contact with their platoon commander.

 

Yup, that´s my understanding as well. I was just mentioning the fact, that the info panels in these situations give misleading info, or none at all. It was totally clear to me that the Coy HQ was doing the rally job on the broken squad, as the Coy HQ was the only capable unit in both close visual and voice range.

Hopefully the game manual will be updated soon on certain details. I can keep working with the knowledge that certain abstractions are there and in effect, without given any valuable feedback from the interface and info panels. Case closed.

Back to original topic. I get infantry to surrender more frequently when they have no viable escape route when panicked/routing. I.e you can surround a pillbox, or single building (pillbox substitute) with barbed wire at close proximity. That denies the path finding routines a viable escape route, which in return increases the effected units surrender chances. That combined with low morale and "-" leader troops, gives some good results if this is a desired effect in self made missions and played vs. the AIP.

I´ve found another terrain/pillbox combination that gives the same effect, yet I keep that as surprise when my WIP mission is ready to be released.

[A Canadian Cat]

I was just mentioning the fact, that the info panels in these situations give misleading info, or none at all. It was totally clear to me that the Coy HQ was doing the rally job on the broken squad, as the Coy HQ was the only capable unit in both close visual and voice range.

I must be thick or something because I am not seeing what is misleading or missing here.  The only thing you could argue is not right is clicking on the command icons jumps to the units superior HQ and not the HQ providing them command. I can see that you can make the case that that is not perfect but the information in the panel is perfectly correct and consistent.  Am I missing something else or are you just talking about the clicking the command icons goes to the wrong place.  I never knew that click on those icons did anything so - surprise.  I'll try to remember to enter a defect just to track it.

[RockinHarry]

I must be thick or something because I am not seeing what is misleading or missing here.  The only thing you could argue is not right is clicking on the command icons jumps to the units superior HQ and not the HQ providing them command. I can see that you can make the case that that is not perfect but the information in the panel is perfectly correct and consistent.  Am I missing something else or are you just talking about the clicking the command icons goes to the wrong place.  I never knew that click on those icons did anything so - surprise.  I'll try to remember to enter a defect just to track it.

IanL, I just find the info panels somewhat misleading in the case of a higher HQ taking over command of units belonging to a HQ lower in the COC structure. Beside that, no problemo. Amongst others, these features aren´t described in the CMBN V3.0 game manual. Clicking the icons always takes you to the original parent HQ, while the icons themselves rather indicate C2 link method is that to the higher HQ, currently in command.

I made a simple test in the editor (mission editor, units, place units). I placed the Coy HQ and the Plt HQ about 110m away from each other. Then I placed one of the squads from the Plt HQ right between them at appr. half range (~50). If it´s shifted to within 50m of the Plt HQ, then the Plt HQ takes command. If it´s shifted to within 50m of the Coy HQ, then the Coy HQ takes over. You can see that reflected both in COC and C2 link info panels. Just shift the squad one AS at a time towards the Plt HQ or Coy HQ and you see when it "snaps" to one HQ or the other. That´s what I learned and I now know what info to look at (C2 link icons) and what to ignore (COC, command lines), when the command take over situation happens. 

[RockinHarry]

I´d like to mention another small detail I just figured out. Command range and C2 link appears to apply just between the leaders of the units in question. In case of the Coy HQ taking over substitute command of a squad I noticed the following:

The squad, which took some losses from the enemy, panicked and routed away normally. The squad leader had received a light wound, with remaining 2 soldiers from the squad beeing uninjured. The squad (self) rallied at some time, when it was still out of command range of any HQ. Beeing in rattled state, I could assign the squad a normal "move" order towards the Coy HQ, which was about 100m away in a building. Beeing lightly wounded, the squad leader moving at slower pace than his buddies, started to fall back during the move. After 2-3 game turns, the 2 uninjured soldiers reached the Coy HQ (about 10-20m away), while the slower moving squad leader still was about 60m away. No C2 command link. As soon as the injured squad leader moved inside the 50m command radius (I gave the Coy HQ a 50m circular target arc, just to have a visual indication of the 50m radius) of the Coy HQ, C2 link to the squad (leader actually) was establised. It´s a logical affair and a good confirmation that the C2 link/COC feature works this way generally. 

[Bulletpoint]

That would make some sense. But not that the Coy HQ has a link to a non existent Bn. HQ. Unless as mentioned, the game needs the highest echelon HQ in order for the whole COC system to work, even if there is no actual HQ of that type in the ORBAT. Sort of abstraction then.

The battalion HQ still exists, it's just off map. If you move your Coy HQ, the Batallion green dot should turn red while the Coy HQ is moving, as radio contact is lost while moving by foot. 

[RockinHarry]

The battalion HQ still exists, it's just off map. If you move your Coy HQ, the Batallion green dot should turn red while the Coy HQ is moving, as radio contact is lost while moving by foot. 

Yup, that was my assumption, that in order for the COC system to work, Bn HQ´s are considered to be somewhere "off map" (or digital nirvana), no matter if the HQ has been deleted from the ORBAT, or is waiting in reinforcement mode.

Just got another idea for test situation. Get the Bn HQ off map during the battle by means of exit objective zone. I already suspect, that it will be the same as in the other cases. Apparently the only situation a Bn HQ will go for good, is when it gets destroyed on the map in combat. Or will a new "ghost" HQ appear in the COC then? Hm....

Yup, radio communications are interrupted by movements. I know, but thanks anyway.

At last I learned a number of things by trial and error and which are not described in the game manual. 

[Bulletpoint]

Yup, that was my assumption, that in order for the COC system to work, Bn HQ´s are considered to be somewhere "off map" (or digital nirvana), no matter if the HQ has been deleted from the ORBAT, or is waiting in reinforcement mode.

Just got another idea for test situation. Get the Bn HQ off map during the battle by means of exit objective zone. I already suspect, that it will be the same as in the other cases. Apparently the only situation a Bn HQ will go for good, is when it gets destroyed on the map in combat. Or will a new "ghost" HQ appear in the COC then? Hm....

Yup, radio communications are interrupted by movements. I know, but thanks anyway.

At last I learned a number of things by trial and error and which are not described in the game manual. 

I did not mean to imply that you are not knowledgeable about the game, but sometimes people miss something obvious (I tried that myself several times) 

Speaking about ghosts and supernatural things - I noticed that if a squad gets wiped out by artillery, the platoon HQ will "feel it", even if it's far away and out of LOS. I had a squad get hit by artillery, and the platoon leader was immediately panicked, even though he was far from enemies and no artillery fell near him. He just felt a great disturbance in the force, apparently!

[Baneman]

Speaking about ghosts and supernatural things - I noticed that if a squad gets wiped out by artillery, the platoon HQ will "feel it", even if it's far away and out of LOS. I had a squad get hit by artillery, and the platoon leader was immediately panicked, even though he was far from enemies and no artillery fell near him. He just felt a great disturbance in the force, apparently!

Yes, this can be mildly annoying sometimes - once I had a truck ( that I desperately needed to move to a resupply point ) panic and ignore its orders for 2 turns because most of its associated platoon was wiped out ... on the other side of a hill over a km away !

Global morale is ... global.

[RockinHarry]

I did not mean to imply that you are not knowledgeable about the game, but sometimes people miss something obvious (I tried that myself several times) 

Speaking about ghosts and supernatural things - I noticed that if a squad gets wiped out by artillery, the platoon HQ will "feel it", even if it's far away and out of LOS. I had a squad get hit by artillery, and the platoon leader was immediately panicked, even though he was far from enemies and no artillery fell near him. He just felt a great disturbance in the force, apparently!

Oh...I still have lots to learn and to know!  The more my WIP missions progress, the more things I stumble upon, particularly the stuff that ain´t in the manual. What´s that global morale feature about, that Baneman mentions? Is that tied to realism modes (iron, elite ect.), or does it always apply? Is that to be interpreted from a HQ units info panel (personnel, condition, morale...)? I rarely see changes for "condition" (mostly 5-4 bars) i.e., but morale appears to be that for just the HQ and it´s immediate subordinates. The Bn. HQ than indicates the overall force I think.

[MOS:96B2P]

I´d like to mention another small detail I just figured out. Command range and C2 link appears to apply just between the leaders of the units in question. <Snip> Being lightly wounded, the squad leader moving at slower pace than his buddies, started to fall back during the move. After 2-3 game turns, the 2 uninjured soldiers reached the Coy HQ (about 10-20m away), while the slower moving squad leader still was about 60m away. No C2 command link. As soon as the injured squad leader moved inside the 50m command radius of the Coy HQ, C2 link to the squad (leader actually) was establised.  

Rock, another interesting post.  Thanks for sharing.   

[RockinHarry]

Forgot to tell the results of another test run with exiting an infantry Bn HQ off the map. It vanishes (red light) from the COC info panel and thus from the top of it (or bottom if you like). The test mission was 30 minutes, so I can not tell if it yet reappears anytime later. Maybe it´s still assumed to be in the chain, but after exiting the map, it´s maybe considered "moving" and thus not operating comms.

Remains the question, what a missing top HQ does to its subordinates, in terms of command, soft fators, global morale and to an AIP´s acting. One can also run a mission, that has a FO team as only "formation", in order to attach single vehicles and specialist teams. While this unusual ORBAT runs without problems in the game, I can not tell if it has any ill effects or not, with regard to the games COC system.

Edit: I think it all doesn´t really matter. Each formation at last has it´s own COC working independently , as you can have multiple Bn (or lower size) formations in the ORBAT, with no Rgt. command in existence that could have any influence.

Edited October 17, 2015 by RockinHarry

[MOS:96B2P]

<Snip> Remains the question, what a missing top HQ does to its subordinates, in terms of command, soft factors, global morale and to an AIP´s acting. <Snip>

I think if the Bn HQ disappears or never was on the map it is similar to the Bn HQ becoming KIA for soft factors.  The soft factors it provided, both good and bad, are removed from the equation.  One of the most notable effects of no Bn HQ would probably be the ability for vertical information sharing between subordinate companies.  The companies could still horizontally share the info but the "information bridge" that the Bn HQ provided would be gone.  The information sharing, between the companies, could still be possible but not as efficient.   

Don't know about the global morale.  If the Bn. HQ started the game but was KIA'd it may (probably should) have a negative effect on morale.  

I am slow this morning ............. what is AIP's?

[RockinHarry]

I think if the Bn HQ disappears or never was on the map it is similar to the Bn HQ becoming KIA for soft factors.  The soft factors it provided, both good and bad, are removed from the equation.  One of the most notable effects of no Bn HQ would probably be the ability for vertical information sharing between subordinate companies.  The companies could still horizontally share the info but the "information bridge" that the Bn HQ provided would be gone.  The information sharing, between the companies, could still be possible but not as efficient.   

Don't know about the global morale.  If the Bn. HQ started the game but was KIA'd it may (probably should) have a negative effect on morale.  

I am slow this morning ............. what is AIP's?

That makes sense with regard to info sharing vertically. With regard to soft factor influences distributed from a Bn HQ down the chain, that would need intensive and prolonged testing for any noticable differences, if these exist. My main interest here is to evaluate whether a Bn HQ qualities affect an AIP´s (artificial inteligence player, the computer player) performance, particularly in self made missions. Will have a high morale, high experience Bn HQ with good leader have a noticable different effect on subordinates, than a bad morale/experience/leader one? Does it matter for the AIP more than for a human player, with regard to the TacAI and its decision making processes? Such things interest me.