Viewing CM maps with contour lines/as topographical maps

[Lt Bull]

Hi

I recently started another huge PBEM QB on a very large map.  Apart from the challenge of coordinating/battle planning a large force size (it was 7209 points), the main issue I was faced was just being able to get a feel for the maps topography.  Without an understanding of it, you really can't develop a battleplan (well you can but I am sure it will be flawed).  Yes you can navigate around the map with the camera but we a all know this is a time consuming and poor substitute for a simple topographical map. For me topographical maps are the bread and butter of battlefield commanders (at least modern ones) and I doubt much could be accomplished without access to one.  It is such a pleasure to play a game like ArmA and access the awesome in game topographical maps that come packaged with the game.  You can mark them up and draw up all kinds of plans.

The suggestion of the game featuring contour lines to assist in this ends has been thrown around probably since CMx1 days and it is a shame to find that there seems no plans for BFC  to ever consider/implement such a thing. That seems odd because I believe much of the information to generate one is already in the game.  It is also odd that all that information is also available to the player yet I do not believe it has been properly realised (at least a forum search didn't reveal anything).

Having only recently started playing around with the editor in more depth, I realised that it was relatively quite easy to create quite effective topographical maps of any CM map (OK it's not exactly a plain contour map, but it achieves the same thing).  I hope I am not posting something that has already be done before but a search of the forums reveals that the kind of map I created hasn't been done before (well, not mentioned of in these forums) which again was quite surprising.  Surely this has been done before.

The map I converted was WynnterGreen's Three Towns QB map (3800x1800m) which has featured in at least one AAR on these forums. I have posted up a downsized version of the full res map so it fits on the screen. The map is a 100% accurate conversion of the actual CM map.  It's incredible the difference having a map like this has made to being able to generate both strategic and tactical battle plans.  You realise just how much you are missing out on playing the game without it and how much a game like this really could benefit from it. I can see how it could benefit both player and scenario designer alike.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Lt Bull

[MOS:96B2P]

<Snip> Having only recently started playing around with the editor in more depth, I realised that it was relatively quite easy to create quite effective topographical maps of any CM map (OK it's not exactly a plain contour map, but it achieves the same thing). <Snip> 

This is of great interest to me (see my signature line).  I am assuming you used the elevation feature in the editor.  I have tried something similar but it did not look as good as yours.  

I think it would be cool to print out the topographical maps (maybe 400 meters by 400 meters or something) put them all together into a big campaign like map, covered with acetate.  Then markers could be used on the acetate for various overlays, SitMaps etc.....

So how did you do it?      

[RockinHarry]

Hi

I recently started another huge PBEM QB on a very large map.  Apart from the challenge of coordinating/battle planning a large force size (it was 7209 points), the main issue I was faced was just being able to get a feel for the maps topography.  Without an understanding of it, you really can't develop a battleplan (well you can but I am sure it will be flawed).  Yes you can navigate around the map with the camera but we a all know this is a time consuming and poor substitute for a simple topographical map. For me topographical maps are the bread and butter of battlefield commanders (at least modern ones) and I doubt much could be accomplished without access to one.  It is such a pleasure to play a game like ArmA and access the awesome in game topographical maps that come packaged with the game.  You can mark them up and draw up all kinds of plans.

The suggestion of the game featuring contour lines to assist in this ends has been thrown around probably since CMx1 days and it is a shame to find that there seems no plans for BFC  to ever consider/implement such a thing. That seems odd because I believe much of the information to generate one is already in the game.  It is also odd that all that information is also available to the player yet I do not believe it has been properly realised (at least a forum search didn't reveal anything).

Having only recently started playing around with the editor in more depth, I realised that it was relatively quite easy to create quite effective topographical maps of any CM map (OK it's not exactly a plain contour map, but it achieves the same thing).  I hope I am not posting something that has already be done before but a search of the forums reveals that the kind of map I created hasn't been done before (well, not mentioned of in these forums) which again was quite surprising.  Surely this has been done before.

The map I converted was WynnterGreen's Three Towns QB map (3800x1800m) which has featured in at least one AAR on these forums. I have posted up a downsized version of the full res map so it fits on the screen. The map is a 100% accurate conversion of the actual CM map.  It's incredible the difference having a map like this has made to being able to generate both strategic and tactical battle plans.  You realise just how much you are missing out on playing the game without it and how much a game like this really could benefit from it. I can see how it could benefit both player and scenario designer alike.

Would definitely be a nice to have in CMX2 and I just can guess how you made it. Yet it´s similar to something worked out long time ago for CMX1. See "Scenario Command Maps" section at bottom of GeorgeMC´s page here: http://www.blowtorchscenarios.com/news/news.htm

Maybe BFC could implement the 2D map overlay feature ("O" key) in the editor, to also beeing applicable in the 3D birds eye view. This possibly would allow any kind of overlay map (real topographical map, or something just fitting a particular purpose) to be used during game play.

[Badger73]

Lt Bull,

I would really like to know how you did this.  I would definitely download the "Mod" tool to produce topo's like this.  Thank you.

[Muzzleflash1990]

If only it was possible to export an image of the entire map with elevation markings at zoom level 4 from inside the editor, then it would be a trivial image recognition problem to extract the elevation markings.

[A Canadian Cat]

For me topographical maps are the bread and butter of battlefield commanders (at least modern ones) and I doubt much could be accomplished without access to one.  

+1 for topo contours in the game.  Lots of people would like to see that as a feature I think.

.. in game topographical maps that come packaged with the game.  You can mark them up and draw up all kinds of plans.

That would be even cooler.

...it is a shame to find that there seems no plans for BFC  to ever consider/implement such a thing. That seems odd because I believe much of the information to generate one is already in the game. 

Not sure what you are talking about there.  BFC does not tell us about specific features they are planning - they just do not.  I do not recall seeing Steve say this was a no way feature.  So, that leads me to wonder why you are so definitive about it.  Are you having private conversations with Steve and Charles?

[Lt Bull]

So maybe I am not wasting my time posting here.  If this had been done before I am sure I would have seen it/heard about it by now.

I guess I feel compelled now to reveal my newly discovered competitive advantage to the rest of the CM world. Damn!

In a nutshell, create a single image of the entire map area as displayed within the Scenario Editor/Map/Elevation screen (zoom level 3), stitching together multiple screenshots as will most likely be the case.  Use an image manipulation program to select all the elevation numbers (a one click process) which will then allow for the creation/transformation in to a simple two tone image.  Import image in to an OCR program to convert to a data file, import this in to a spreadsheet program that can create 2D surface plots.  Depending on the size of the map and if you know what you are doing this whole process can take maybe 5-20 min.

Adding the buildings, trees and roads is an additional step but it is all 100% accurate and again quite simple.

I am happy to take requests and create these maps for any scenario out there as further proof of just how easy and effective the process can be.

Not sure what you are talking about there.  BFC does not tell us about specific features they are planning - they just do not.  I do not recall seeing Steve say this was a no way feature.  So, that leads me to wonder why you are so definitive about it.  Are you having private conversations with Steve and Charles?

I'm not sure what you are talking about there.  If BFC want to remain secretive/funny about what they are planning, fine, the rest of us will go on what we do know. If a user goes searching the forums, they will find that there seems to be no evidence of plans for BFC to ever consider/implement some kind of topographical/contour line map/overlay.  Maybe after seeing how easy it was to generate what I did from what they already have in the game, and how effective/useful these maps are they may re-evaluate their position.

I certainly hope they realise that if they are incapable of implementing something directly in to the game, then perhaps they can do something to facilitate the process I outlined above which allows players to externally generate the kinds of topographical/contour line maps I have been able to create.  Specifically a delimited text file EXPORT function of the tile elevations within the Scenario Editor that could then be easily imported in to a spreadsheet program to then generate 2D surface plots.  That would eliminate the screenshot taking/stitching/manipulation and OCR steps completely and save players 80% of the time needed to create these maps. In fact, if they were ever going down that path, they may as well also implement an IMPORT text file function to generate maps from text files.  A simple EXPORT/IMPORT functionality like that would be an incredibly useful addition to the game for both players and scenario designers alike.

Edited September 29, 2015 by Lt Bull

[A Canadian Cat]

I'm not sure what you are talking about there.  If BFC want to remain secretive/funny about what they are planning, fine, the rest of us will go on what we do know. If a user goes searching the forums, they will find that there seems to be no evidence of plans for BFC to ever consider/implement some kind of topographical/contour line map/overlay.  

I was simply pointing out the logical fallacy of saying something definitively when you have no actual evidence for it.  That's all. We al know that BFC does not tell us what is on and what is off their list of features they have planned.  Therefore saying that feature X is never going to happen is just incorrect. It is that simple.  I have no desire to antagonize.

Maybe after seeing how easy it was to generate what I did from what they already have in the game, and how effective/useful these maps are they may re-evaluate their position.

See above we have no idea if there is a position to reevaluate.  That is just a silly comment.

Now off that difficult topic and hopefully without offending you too much (I'll stop now, at least for this topic )

 

What you have done looks brilliant, bloody brilliant. I like the idea of using OCR to capture the elevations - cool.  Can I ask what OCR process you used? I personally only have one built into my scanner but it does not produce data I can use it just makes PDFs more the simply image scans.

In fact, if they were ever going down that path, they may as well also implement an IMPORT text file function to generate maps from text files.  A simple EXPORT/IMPORT functionality like that would be an incredibly useful addition to the game for both players and scenario designers alike.

Now that would be a great thing.  As you have demonstrated again there are people here who are very willing to contribute useful side helper apps and other useful items.  If we had more ways to control the games starting and import and export useful stuff the community would do more and more neat stuff.

[RockinHarry]

So maybe I am not wasting my time posting here.  If this had been done before I am sure I would have seen it/heard about it by now.

I guess I feel compelled now to reveal my newly discovered competitive advantage to the rest of the CM world. Damn!

In a nutshell, create a single image of the entire map area as displayed within the Scenario Editor/Map/Elevation screen (zoom level 3), stitching together multiple screenshots as will most likely be the case.  Use an image manipulation program to select all the elevation numbers (a one click process) which will then allow for the creation/transformation in to a simple two tone image.  Import image in to an OCR program to convert to a data file, import this in to a spreadsheet program that can create 2D surface plots.  Depending on the size of the map and if you know what you are doing this whole process can take maybe 5-20 min.

Adding the buildings, trees and roads is an additional step but it is all 100% accurate and again quite simple.

I am happy to take requests and create these maps for any scenario out there as further proof of just how easy and effective the process can be.

I like this creative idea and procedure to make these contour maps, although personally I´d find it to be still much too labourious (as was making this kind of maps for CMX1). But it showed potential with regard to ease battle planning and maintaining, for which there is still widespread need I´d guess. Since the map overlay feature was added to the games map editor, I´m working lots with it, preparing any kind of overlay maps in an graphics application and at last combine these maps into something, that can be easily printed out for reference during actual game play. Could be simple sketch map, to something like a copy of the used topo map at WW2 times. I´d also wish for the ARMA style 2D battle view implemented to CMX2 for planning purposes, or beeing simply an alternative.  

[Bil Hardenberger]

Very clever!!

I've done a couple different things in the past to get contour lines:

1.  Capture the map images from the editor, ensuring the topo lines are somewhat visible, stitch them together in Photoshop (if required, usually is for large maps), then I apply different filters until I get the look, contour clarity that I am looking for.. add a grid, and presto, a great map for planning:

From CMBS BETA AAR:

2.  In the CMFI BETA AAR Eye of the Elefant I overlaid (in Photoshop) the map I used as a basis for the map in CM onto a screenshot of the map from the game, again added a grid.. this was the most effective.  

Edited September 29, 2015 by Bil Hardenberger

[Bud Backer]

Bil, how do you get topo to be visible in the editor? I somehow missed that.  

[A Canadian Cat]

The overlay feature for the map editor let's you put an picture on top of the map you are creating. I'm on my phone now but if you search the engine  manual for overlay you should find out how to do it.

While you are editing you can control the transparency of the image and then you can draw the elevations or trees or roads right onto the map following along with the real image.

I usually have a couple of contour line versions and one for the road network and buildings. 

[A Canadian Cat]

So far it has been the single best feature added to the game! In my opinion anyway  

[Bud Backer]

The overlay feature for the map editor let's you put an picture on top of the map you are creating. I'm on my phone now but if you search the engine  manual for overlay you should find out how to do it.

While you are editing you can control the transparency of the image and then you can draw the elevations or trees or roads right onto the map following along with the real image.

I usually have a couple of contour line versions and one for the road network and buildings. 

But what I understood in Bil's first example was that he was extracting topo info from the editor, not overlaying it from and image which was the second example. Or did I misunderstand?

[A Canadian Cat]

Oh, oops. No I think @Bil Hardenberger meant was he used the contour image as the overlay while creating the map and then again as the topo map for planning. Perhaps combining the contours with a screen shot of the finished map. 

[Bil Hardenberger]

Most of the time I do not have the overlay map available so I have to get the contour info from the editor.  When looking at the map in the editor, on the two left most zoom levels (zoomed out) and when you are on the Map>Elevation tab you will see the contours as little black dots ... if the contours are not clear then fill the map with sand and you can create a nice overlay to use in your favorite image manipulation program.  The CMBS example above was done in this manner.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Bil Hardenberger

[Lt Bull]

I was simply pointing out the logical fallacy of saying something definitively when you have no actual evidence for it.  That's all. We al know that BFC does not tell us what is on and what is off their list of features they have planned.  Therefore saying that feature X is never going to happen is just incorrect. It is that simple.  I have no desire to antagonize.

See above we have no idea if there is a position to reevaluate.  That is just a silly comment.

Now off that difficult topic and hopefully without offending you too much (I'll stop now, at least for this topic )

IanL, I appreciate your interest in this topic, but I don't want this line of discussion to extend any further in this thread after you once again put me in a position where I am compelled to painfully/tediously "defend" myself against claims you have constructed yourself and tried to attribute to me.  If there is a need to discuss this further with me, do so via PM and spare this thread of this needless nonsense, confusion and distraction which seems endemic to these forums.

You originally highlighted my quote where I made the simple observation/claim "...there seems to be no plans for BFC to ever implement/consider such a thing", expressed confusion over my statements and then posed the question "So that leads me to wonder why you are so definitive about it. Are you having private discussion about it with Steve and Charles?" 

The "it" being addressed appears to be my rather harmless observation/claim that there seems to be no plans for BFC to ever implement/consider topo maps/contour lines in CM and a self wonder of why I am so definitive about "it" (the observation).  "Seems to be" (or "appears to be") is a statement of perspective based on shared observations and "no plans" could be substituted/replaced with "no evidence".

Yes, this is exactly the observation I have made based on my own forum searches but FWIW I wasn't even necessarily claiming to be "definitive" about "it" anyway.  Being definitive about this observation would probably mean having done exhaustive/complete and thorough research on every publicly available comment ever published by BFC and finding comments to this effect: "We have no intention of implementing contour maps".  This is not what I claimed or am claiming to observe.  If I did find something like that then the use of the qualifier "seems to be" would be unnecessary.  However searches also do not reveal comments like "Yes, we are planning to incorporate topo maps/contour lines to CM" or even just simply "the possibility of incorporating topo maps/contour lines to CM is something we are investigating" either, but that doesn't mean that BFC are not actually planning on doing so of course.  BFC however have literally not revealed any plans for these features and so we are justified in saying there seems to be no plans. If I am wrong about that then by all means show me where in the forums BFC have addressed this very possibility of topo maps/contour lines appearing in CM. BFC publicly stating "we are working on many things in secret" is not good enough an observation by itself to be considered equivalent to the observation that they are planning/considering these features.

You then find reason to quote my explanation and reply by saying you had been "simply pointing out the logical fallacy of saying something definitive when you have no actual evidence of it...Therefore that saying that feature X is never going to happen is incorrect".  ????????? Comments like this are borne of an inability to once again get your head around what I am saying while instead associating me with weak statements/claims/conclusions I clearly did not and am not making (a classic example of this).  Nonsense on so many levels.  Nothing I have said is a "logical fallacy". I wasn't even being "definitive" about anything, I just stated an observation without drawing any conclusions.  The "evidence" for my observation is the lack of definitive public statements by BFC on these forums to the contrary. I never said anything like feature X is never going to happen (refer to this again) and please do not ever pull that stunt again.  This was followed up by you quoting a possible scenario I suggested (where BFC might reassess their position after reading what I was able to achieve) and responding to it as if the fact as to whether BFC even have a position to re-evaluate matters (which it doesn't as I was clearly considering a possible scenario) and finishing by calling it all a silly comment.  Yes this topic was difficult, but more needlessly difficult.

I forgive you for these public brain farts. I will put it down to one innocently overlooking key subtleties of my discussion that resulted in an unfortunate misunderstanding. I would however rather engage you on the actual thread topic.

Can I ask what OCR process you used? I personally only have one built into my scanner but it does not produce data I can use it just makes PDFs more the simply image scans.

Not all OCR processes/outputs are the same.  Fortunately there are free on-line ones we can all use that can do what is required.  I found http://www.onlineocr.net/ the best to use.  I found that there can be a few odd issues with it but you best PM me if you want to know what they are/run in to troubles.

I like this creative idea and procedure to make these contour maps, although personally I´d find it to be still much too labourious (as was making this kind of maps for CMX1). But it showed potential with regard to ease battle planning and maintaining, for which there is still widespread need I´d guess. Since the map overlay feature was added to the games map editor, I´m working lots with it, preparing any kind of overlay maps in an graphics application and at last combine these maps into something, that can be easily printed out for reference during actual game play. Could be simple sketch map, to something like a copy of the used topo map at WW2 times. I´d also wish for the ARMA style 2D battle view implemented to CMX2 for planning purposes, or beeing simply an alternative.  

RockinHarry, creating the kind of map I did certainly is not for everyone.  Access to and knowledge in the use of the software programs I mention will all determine if it is at all possible and how laborious (time consuming) the procedure I have outlined is.  I would not discourage you from at least trying it yourself as you seem to be kind of handy when it comes to at least manipulating graphics files. I am happy to help you out with any issues you might encounter.  You did say that you did tinker around with a similar idea back in CMx1 days and I did check the link and saw how you stitched together multiple map preview (not map editor/elevation) screenshots that tried to use the natural light and shading in the game to highlight the various changes in elevation. I too recall at least stitching together overhead battle map screenshots together to generate a complete battle map but I am sure I too gave up because picking elevations/depressions on the map was not that easy.

I actually am unfamiliar with the "map overlay feature" you mention! I kind of heard it being referred to but never was confronted with a menu/option inside of the editor that made me discover it myself.  How do I access it?  If it allows scenario designers to transparently overlay images over the map editor canvas, then I could see potential in "designing" a map outside of CM on say a spreadsheet full of elevation numbers, creating an image of that spreadsheet and importing it to the editor so that the designer can just manually enter the overlapping image elevation value in to the corresponding tile box.  In some ways this is almost the reverse of the procedure I outlined.

I definitely am not counting on any ArmA-like 2D contour battle maps within CM any time soon, short of a statement by BFC to the contrary suggesting otherwise.  Given what can be done already, I would be content with them focussing on features players can not essentially create themselves.

I've done a couple different things in the past to get contour lines:

1.  Capture the map images from the editor, ensuring the topo lines are somewhat visible, stitch them together in Photoshop (if required, usually is for large maps), then I apply different filters until I get the look, contour clarity that I am looking for.. add a grid, and presto, a great map for planning:

From CMBS BETA AAR:

2.  In the CMFI BETA AAR Eye of the Elefant I overlaid (in Photoshop) the map I used as a basis for the map in CM onto a screenshot of the map from the game, again added a grid.. this was the most effective.  

I am quite familiar with the effort you have gone to with some of your AARs/videos/webpages and would be happy to create these kinds of maps for you if required (I do not have CMBS however).  I was going to just go ahead and quickly do one for the same map as the one you used in the AAR Eye of the Elefant battle but I could not find the map source.  I am not sure if it's a custom scenario that is unavailable online or if it was just a QB using one of the many CMFI QB maps.

 

 

 

 

 

[A Canadian Cat]

 

I forgive you for these public brain farts. I will put it down to one innocently overlooking key subtleties of my discussion that resulted in an unfortunate misunderstanding. 

LOL OK.

I would however rather engage you on the actual thread topic.

Ditto

Not all OCR processes/outputs are the same.  Fortunately there are free on-line ones we can all use that can do what is required.  I found http://www.onlineocr.net/ the best to use.  I found that there can be a few odd issues with it but you best PM me if you want to know what they are/run in to troubles.

Very interesting.  When I did a search for an OCR utility I dismissed that one out of hand.  If I want to make use of a tool to do something useful I like to get it on my HD so I am guaranteed it will be there when I want it, therefore I usually do not use on line services like that one.  However, I did not have much luck with the ones I found they particularly had trouble with light letters on dark backgrounds. 

I will look at that one you suggest after all having it work is more important than having it on my HD.

I actually am unfamiliar with the "map overlay feature" you mention! I kind of heard it being referred to but never was confronted with a menu/option inside of the editor that made me discover it myself.  How do I access it?  If it allows scenario designers to transparently overlay images over the map editor canvas, then I could see potential in "designing" a map outside of CM on say a spreadsheet full of elevation numbers, creating an image of that spreadsheet and importing it to the editor so that the designer can just manually enter the overlapping image elevation value in to the corresponding tile box.  In some ways this is almost the reverse of the procedure I outlined.

Yes, that is how it works but there is no UI for it.  You need to place a magically named file in a magic place   check out "Map Overlay" on page 83 of the "CM Engine Manual v3.00.pdf" that comes with CMBN.