Preacher Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 I love this game. It's the best there is. Period. I would call it revolutionary. Having said that, let me say this: Someone (Fionn, Moon, et al) please convince me that the AI has absolutely NO knowledge of my setup. It just seems too coincidental that the AI's 88s in the Reisberg scen always seem to be in the perfect position in relation to my armor. I've experimented with various placement areas for my Shermans and, so far, the 88s ALWAYS end up on the same flank as my tanks. Maybe it is coincidence. However, i need convincing here. Preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 I look at it as simple tactics. The Germans get 2 88s, and I would want to cover as much ground as possible with those 2 guns. When I played Riesberg I fiddled with placement and found that it's possible to cover almost all of the US side of the map except for the road. Of course, the first Sherman I saw killed an 88 after surviving 2 hits; the other never even saw the enemy armor; Panzerschreck teams killed all 4 of them. I haven't tried this one as the US yet; I'm willing to bet that it's really damn hard to find entry spots and Axes of Advance for the Shermans that will keep them out of LOF from the 88s. It's like LastDefence; it's tough to get the German armor into a position to support the infantry that does NOT expose the tanks to the Hellcats. The best I've been able to do is to get the Tiger behind the VL house on the right of the road (right next to the wheat field) and a StuG up along the 4 houses that stick out at a 45 degree angle away from the bridge (The second StuG got nailed while trying to get up to the church.) DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest L Tankersley Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It just seems too coincidental that the AI's 88s in the Reisberg scen always seem to be in the perfect position in relation to my armor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Heh, I've played Reisberg twice as the Amis and both times the 88s were in exactly the same place. The first time I pretty much stuck to the default deployment, and got lucky - a Sherman took out the 88 on the hill on the first turn. The second time I put all my tanks on my right flank, and never even saw the 88 up on the hill. MY concern was "hmm, does the AI EVER change its setup?!" The other thing that's driving me nuts is the Hellcats in "Last Defense" - I've played twice as the Germans, and both times I've lost all my AFVs the turn the M18s show up, and haven't killed any M18s. I played once as the US, and the Hellcats only got one StuG and one halftrack before they were all knocked out (on their entry turn). But I'll get 'em. Just you wait. Leland J. Tankersley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 I swear on my childhood Hamster's grave that the AI does not have ANY information that you do not have access too The AI *is* quite good at setting up good firing positions, both initially and during the game. In Riesberg there is one VERY obvious shooting spot, and that is the big hill. Therefore it almost always puts it up there. However, I have seen it placed in several different locations on the hill. Each position gave it slightly different lanes of fire. The one in town it moved from the default position and scared the crap out of me (and slaughtered a bunch of my guys!) when it put it behind the little pond. Deployment restrictions (same as for the human) do limit the number of spots it can be placed in, but in this case the terrain is the factor that is more limiting. BTW, the AI is set up to sometimes NOT pick the absolute best position. So for two guns it might pick its #1 and #3 most "favored" spots. However, #3 might be in fact just as good as #2 Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Preacher Posted November 1, 1999 Author Share Posted November 1, 1999 Ok, Steve. I trust you. I'll chalk it up to coincidence. Preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 Leland, "The other thing that's driving me nuts is the Hellcats in "Last Defense" - I've played twice as the Germans, and both times I've lost all my AFVs the turn the M18s show up, and haven't killed any M18s. I played once as the US, and the Hellcats only got one StuG and one halftrack before they were all knocked out (on their entry turn). But I'll get 'em. Just you wait." I had the exact same thing happen. They got every last one of my AFV's when they arrived on turn 10 or so, except for 1 of the half-tracks (actually after the scenario was over I saw one of his mortars got one of the HT's however). Quite frankly, while I believe this might be possible in real life (so I can't say it isn't realistic!), I do find it hard to believe nonetheless. I don't think my guys even got a single shot off (because they were immediately toasted by the 1st or 2nd shots from the Hellcats). What's worse, I will say that I don't think it is realistic from the view point that "in reality" my tanks should have seen them before they entered the map and therefore should have adjusted to this new threat vs. shooting at the infantry in the village like they were. The fact that the 3 M-18's suddenly pop onto the map and "apparently" don't pay any penalty for having just stopped moving in terms of targeting accuracy I think my need to be reconsidered by BTS because quite frankly I think my guys should have had just as easy of a time simply rotating/turning their turrets to take the M-18's under fire when they appeared as the M-18's did! My vote is that units entering the map should pay a fairly high firing accuracy penalty when they very first enter until they have come on and remained stationary for at least 30 seconds! Regards, Mike D aka Mikester [This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 11-01-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 My impression is that this is more of a scenario design issue than anything else. I'm not sure the results would be that different if there was a small dip at the back of the map, and the Hellcats had to drive up it at first (in fact, it might be worse, because then they could get hull down ) Usually, the German AFVs are buttoned and/or engaging other targets, while the Hellcats aren't. Now, I haven't tried just sitting the Tiger at the back of the map unbuttoned and waiting for them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest L Tankersley Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Usually, the German AFVs are buttoned and/or engaging other targets, while the Hellcats aren't. Now, I haven't tried just sitting the Tiger at the back of the map unbuttoned and waiting for them... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yep. I'm reluctant to do that, because I "shouldn't know" that those three M18s are gonna show up there. But I had my three AFVs separated (Tiger on right flank in scattered trees, one StuG on the road, and the other StuG over on the left flank and all were unbuttoned. The last time, I watched the duel from the Tiger's perspective first - I saw a few 76mm rounds fly by, the Tiger fired and missed, a few more rounds came in, the Tiger fired and hit but the round shattered instead of penetrating, another shot came in, hit and immobilized the Tiger, and then a final coup de grace knocked out the Tiger. I thought "well, if they were all concentrating on the Tiger, maybe my StuGs are ok - no such luck, they were both KO'd and one was burning. Then I checked the M18s, figuring maybe the StuGs got one or two - nope. Very depressing. But I won the scenario anyway, so there, nasty Hellcats! Mike, I'm not sure this is too unrealistic - I think the TDs probably have a higher rate of fire than the German vehicles, plus they're firing down on vehicles that are probably busy with other things. I know that a few shots had whizzed past my Tiger before it could crank the turret around to engage the TDs. I agree that I would prefer the M18s not appear on the map in such a commanding position, but that's a scenario design issue. And I'm not 100% convinced it's all that wacky, either - consider, the M18s are moving to reinforce the town that's under attack, they can no doubt hear the battle going on as they mount the far side of the hill. They _know_ they're moving into battle with a German armored force. The Germans can't be sure that they're coming. Leland J. Tankersley [This message has been edited by L Tankersley (edited 11-01-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Jones Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 Just for fun I'm going to set up an ambush point on the road where the Hellcats apear and target it with my Tiger and both STUGs. Then I'll just wait and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 1, 1999 Share Posted November 1, 1999 Harold, that is Devilish Probably will work, though of course you would have to hang your head in the shame of "cheating" Mikester, the M-18s popping up like that is entirely plausible. In fact, I based it on something that happened in a real battle (and I am sure the German commnder was also pissed ). But luck is just that. I have played from the American side and had all three Hellcats snuffed out before they KO'd much (one StuG and a HT). In fact, I used to only give them two Hellcats, and found that generally both were clobbered. BTW, the Hellcats *are* penalized. They have to aquire targets just like any other vehicle. The difference is that the Germans are engaged in fighting and are buttoned up. Two penalties that the Hellcats don't have against them. Totally realistic. Trust me, after the uproar over the reinforcements that came into play in the Martin/Fionn PBEM game I thought LONG and hard about how reinforcements came in. I figured people would bitch about the Hellcats, but I felt for sure that they would be wrong to and therefore included it Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Jones Posted November 2, 1999 Share Posted November 2, 1999 I doubt if it would work against another person, or even the AI. I just want to watch the fireworks. Actually I have two or three other things I want to do as well. I'll probably do a hotseat against myself and try them all out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonS Posted November 2, 1999 Share Posted November 2, 1999 Leaving a German unit back near the right flank starting position isn't, I think, unrealistic. I think the crunchies call it overwatch and it's a fairly standard tactic. I tried it leaving a Stug back on the hill and it worked a treat. JonS ------------------ Quo Fas et Vino du Femme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 2, 1999 Share Posted November 2, 1999 In my first game when I was testing this prior to release to y'all I placed a StuG on overwatch there and another in the woods. This was before I knew anything about Hellcats since I was playing it without any insider info to test properly... Anyways the Hellcats took out both Stugs within seconds of coming in, lost two of their number to return fire from the Tiger and 1 StuG but then the third Hellcat took out my Tiger (which was advancing down the main road since I wasn't expecting US tanks.) from the German perspective the woody hill on the right makes a great overwatch position. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSY Posted November 2, 1999 Share Posted November 2, 1999 Well, for what it's worth, my troops took down all three Hellcats with the loss of only one Stug. The Tiger and the surviving Stug were out in the open and I think they were buttoned up (the Americans had been dropping some kind of nasty artillery in the area the turns prior to the Hellcats arrival--I supposed it could have been the 60mm mortars, but it looked pretty big). The Hellcats arrival kind of suprised me. First thing I noticed was that my Tiger wasn't shooting at the infantry target I had told it to. Then I noticed that there was a smoke column coming from the far hill. Then I discovered that something was shooting at me. I think the Tiger took at least two hits with no penetration. My Stug on the left was hit and was abandoned by its crew. At the end of the turn, the Americans had a Hellcat left and I had a Tiger and a Stug left. I was a bit worried because the Hellcat was hulldown and I was out in the open, but I didn't think trying to pull my armor back was going to work, so I left them there to just slug it out. Tiger and Stug took the last Hellcat down. End of enemy armor threat. [This message has been edited by PSY (edited 11-01-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted November 2, 1999 Share Posted November 2, 1999 In the one chance Ive had to play a human on the last defence scenerio my battle went pretty much the same PSY. I think the key with CM is that you REALLY need to put some thought into your units placments, and how you use them. For instance I took about 10 minutes (probably more) just getting to the edge of the forest line and preparing for my main assult. I bought my Stugs down the left and right of the battlefield and my Tiger down the middle. The Tiger I ordered to slowely move forward and then backed her into some scatter trees in the middle of the map. When the M18's appeared, they missed it and went straight after the Stug on the right (I hadnt had time to get her into cover), killing it (1 round hit and took out a track, the next hit almost instantly and took her out completely). The Tiger responded killing 1 M18 with its first shot, and a second with the third shot. The last M18 moved down the hill towards the town out my the Tigers LOS. In my orders phase I got down on the ground and found at what point the M18 should become visible again and told my Tiger to hunt to that spot (about 25m from the woods). The next turn the Tiger moved up and got first shot off at the M18 (I suspect the allied commander was move it up too fast). That was the end of that problem. Meanwhile, using the Tiger battle somewhat as a distraction I flanked the allied troops behind the stone wall and pretty much took out an entire platoon in about 3 minutes in a deadly crossfire. The player I was playing aginst had kicked my butt on the Reisberg (or however you spell it ) scenerio, and if I had move in a different way, would have again in this one. If I had left the Tiger in the middle of the road for instance, im sure he would have been the M18 first hit, and probably kill. Anyways, just thought I throw in my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted November 2, 1999 Share Posted November 2, 1999 Steve, "Mikester, the M-18s popping up like that is entirely plausible." Like I said, I can't say that it was entirely unrealistic, now can I. "But luck is just that." I imagine this had a great deal to do with it. "BTW, the Hellcats *are* penalized." This is good to know, and Idid figure that you had taken this into account, I would only question whether the penalty should be stiffer. But based on the various results you and others have mentioned here (i.e. Hellcat's getting clobbered instead) I guess one cannot say that things are "unbalanced" in terms of entering reinforcements having some sort of overwhelming advantage. "They have to aquire targets just like any vehicle." Man did they ever acquire them quickly for just having moved in from off map. Way too quick in my estimation. I swear at least two of them scored a direct hit and a kill on the first shot! I guess this is my point here, seems pretty unlikely that they could just come waltzing in, stop, rotate turrets, aim, fire off a round at a target that is a pretty good distance away, and BLAMO, score a direct hit immediately. Only way I could see this being realistic is: 1) they simply got really lucky, or 2) they had crack crews! Of course, the fact that my tanks were stationary I'm certain helped lead to their quick demise. BUt then the M18's were totally stationary after they entered too. But that didn't matter at all since I never even got a chance to get a shot off, so that became immaterial. It did, however, help the next 2-3 turns afterward though when they pretty much continued to remain stationary and start to tear up my infantry from long range. They paid the price though as I had immediately targeted first one, and next turn after that, both of my 81mm mortars on them to get some revenge. Result was one M18 killed by a direct hit (think it was about the 4th or 5th round that landed) and another disabled (track hit?) the following turn. "The difference is that the Germans are engaged in fighting and are buttoned up. Two penalties that the Hellcats don't have against them." None of my tanks were buttoned up at the time! They were engaging infantry targets however, so I can understand that they were somewhat preoccupied. However, at least one of the Stugs was pointed toward their entry point and the Tiger turret wasn't rotated very far off of them either. Yet they both are immediately hit and burn up. The Tiger was killed instantly on the first shot no less. Oh well, so go the fortunes of war I guess. Totally realistic. I could beg to differ here, but like I said, I can't say that the result was unrealistic in that it "couldn't have ever happened", so I'll just attribute it to luck. Anyways, the game is great fun and I would say regardless of anything I've seen (save for the charging HQ suicide units) one of the most realistic wargames I've ever played!!! Regards, Mike D Aka Mikester [This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 11-01-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foobar Posted November 2, 1999 Share Posted November 2, 1999 well, I have played 3 times on last defense as axis. I have a cumulative loss of 9 armor units, and one confirmed hellcat kill. The hellcat was killed by artillery fire. And just as I'm plotting my revenge, with my arty spotter "ok, jerky, HERE COMES THE PAIN!!!" , an unbuttoned hellcat spots my FO at 800m +. The only thing more painful than waiting 10 minutes for 105 shells from a shaken spotter, is to have a Tiger Commander greased by small arms fire... man what a game though, I'm having fun even when they're kicking my butt!! (less fun, mind you) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Jones Posted November 2, 1999 Share Posted November 2, 1999 Well, my ambush plan failed miserably. It appears that an officer can only set an ambush within a set range. When I targeted the hill top for the ambush the LOS bar said out of range. Instead I just left the Tiger parked where he could see the hill top and moved a STUG next to him. I had the STUG fire some rounds into a building while I waited for the M-18s to show up. When the M-18s arrived I targeted all 3 of them on the STUG as they couldn't see the Tiger. When the turn executed the STUG died and the Tiger took a shot at one of the M-18s and killed it. The other M-18s targeted the Tiger and blazed away. 10 or 12 hits later they managed to damage its main gun so I ended the test. One thing I noticed is that the Hellcats seem to fire much faster than the Tiger or the STUGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted November 2, 1999 Share Posted November 2, 1999 Here's my last defense story: My 2nd game of CM was as the germans, so I knew from playing my 1st game as US where and when the M18's would appear. They managed to destroy both stugs with no losses. Somehow one of the M18's was immobilized after moving about 100 meters laterally on the hill top with it's ass-end toward the germans. A 105 arty round must have done that since I ruled out shots from my armor. In the last 6 minutes of the game, my tiger held in reserve stalked and killed all 3 M18's from >800, 600 and <100 meters each. The tiger was unbuttoned and almost certainly unspotted. All 3 M18's were buttoned and spotted at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted November 2, 1999 Share Posted November 2, 1999 'One thing I noticed is that the Hellcats seem to fire much faster than the Tiger or the STUGs. ' Harold, that is one of the examples of where an opened top turret was actually a benefit. Because of the freedom of movement in the open topped vehicle, they could reload more rapidly. Ground based AT guns can fire even faster, they can be very deadly little things ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Back to Last Devense and the 88 setup. You can, if you try hard enough, get the 88 to set up with a LOS all the way up and down the road and a good portion of the German right side of the map. I took out two Shermans, one MG team, damaged another, and hit what I think was an infantry squad before being taken out by a third Sherman. That one died to the other 88 on the hill. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Talley Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 On the rate of fire, I had a 60mm Mtr dueling with an 88. The 88 was matching the mortar on a one for one basis. I brought this up earlier but I believe it was missed. The Hellcat is open topped but when you look at it, only one crewman is exposed when not buttoned up. It looks very similiar to an enclosed tank turret. Any chance that several of the crewmen could be exposed for open topped vehicles? Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Ken, Here's an recounting of an incident in Normandy by a Sgt. Stephens of E Troop 129th Battery (British versions of US M10's, very similiar to M18): 'The explosion of the mortar in that confined space had devastated everything inside. The 17lbr and .50 caliber ammunition had gone up. Lying on the floor of the turret was what was left of the crew, burnt to a cinder with their teeth bared in some kind of grin. I cried, having known them all for so long...' From 'OVERLORD, D-Day & the Battle for Normandy' by Max Hastings The M10/M18 series had a wide open turret where the entire turret crew was always exposed from above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Talley Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Renaud, pretty gruesome story. I wonder how many M10/M18 crews survived because of the 360 degree vision vs an enclosed enemy tank. I would imagine that crucial first spotting is going to the open top vehicle. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 3, 1999 Share Posted November 3, 1999 Harold, forgot about the limited range for Ambushes! Guess we nipped a gamey cheat in the bud 10+ hits on that Tiger, eh? Gotta love thick armor! Yes, the RoF of the American tanks is generally much better than German ones. Has a lot to do with the gun itself, but also the shell size. The RoF on a Jagdtiger is horrible!! Ken, only the MG gunner is actually exposed in the M18. The rest of the crew has their heads below the top rim when in combat positions. So small arms fire is not an issue. Ugh, but a mortar round dropped inside certainly is... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts