Phlegmatic tank commanders

[CarlWAW]

I noticed that vehicle/tank crews do not button down when they come under small arms fire. Even if their tank/vehicle is being sprayed for several seconds with bullets they keep their heads out and do not react - until their head is gone.

Vehicle crews also seem to ignore if enemy aircraft is going after their tank. They just stay open, even when a big bomb is coming their way.

[womble]

I noticed that vehicle/tank crews do not button down when they come under small arms fire. Even if their tank/vehicle is being sprayed for several seconds with bullets they keep their heads out and do not react - until their head is gone.

Vehicle crews also seem to ignore if enemy aircraft is going after their tank. They just stay open, even when a big bomb is coming their way.

Depends what motivation level and morale state they're in. Low motivation tankies get their heads down a lot more rapidly than Fanatics. 

 

That said, I do wish they wouldn't be quite so sanguine about the lead pinging off their hatch surrounds when it's automatic fire, and several rounds hit the tank in the last 10s. It seems somewhat inconsistent that the TC will front up for a good while and then, immediately he decides it's too hot to have his head out, orders a retreat. Especially when he knows he's well screened by infantry, and there's not a sign of AT weaponry being available to the grunts who're spoiling his top-down-motoring (since if they had any that could reach, they've had plenty of time to get it used by the time the TC ducks.

 

Ideally, a high motivation, high experience TC will stay "up" when incoming is light, and know better when it's getting to the point of prudence than a similarly well motivated TC of lesser experience.

[Holman]

Rifle fire tends to come in volleys.  I can usually count on my TC's to ignore the first volley but button up at the second or third.  Closer-ranged fire seems to alarm them more than long-ranged fire does.  MG fire obviously doesn't come in volleys, but it usually spooks a TC quickly.

 

This seems realistic enough for me.  If I could tweak it, I'm not sure what choice I would make that would improve every likely circumstance.

[AlexUK]

It would be helpful if there was an intermediate stage (ducked down), as often shown in Fury. 

[Migo441]

I've found myself wanting a secondary "Open Up Light" command which would give the exposed TC/crew a greater self-preservation instinct.  Same spotting capabilities as the basic Open Up, but they would button up upon recieving any fire (perhaps even in reaction to enemy contact markers within a certain range threshold).

 

In a twist to the normal complaints that our troops aren't following our orders, we're now complaining that they ARE following our orders.  

 

Player: "Why didn't you button up?!"

Pixeltruppen: "Umm...  YOU told me to OPEN UP."

 

On the other hand, the human player often has a specific reason they want a TC/crew to Open Up regardless of the risks.  So it's pretty impossible to keep us happy.

[Vinnart]

I thought they were much better about buttoning up and opening up on their own in cmx1. It is an area they could improve with the AI.

[Holman]

It would be helpful if there was an intermediate stage (ducked down), as often shown in Fury. 

 

I try to remind myself that not every possible stance is animated.  If an opened-up TC is missed by incoming fire (especially after already being fired on), you can just assume that he was ducking down at the time.  In game terms, it makes no difference.

[BLSTK]

If an opened-up TC is missed by incoming fire (especially after already being fired on), you can just assume that he was ducking down at the time.  

 

 

In my experience, any "ducking down" by one of my TC's tends to be permanent. Chances are, if there's a volley fired in the vicinity it'll find my him. And, guess what, the chances increase if he's the HQ.

[Bulletpoint]

It would be helpful if there was an intermediate stage (ducked down), as often shown in Fury. 

 

Haven't watched that movie, but it does seem like tank commanders are poking their heads too far out of the turret...

 

It's the same with halftrack passengers sitting up straight, head above the side armour. In reality, they would hunch over a bit, for protection or simply because sitting up straight like that is tiring. I know I would.

[CarlWAW]

If the reaction speed of tank commanders ducking to incoming fire is dependent on motivation, then I think this would be highly unrealistic. Why should even the worst motivated and green guy wait many seconds longer to get his head into safety?

I could understand that an experienced TC could recognize a missed shot earlier than the less experienced one (thinking about sixth sense VS sharpshooters). But once a bullet hits the tank, everyone knows that his head is being served like on a tablet!

I think either the first shot is  a hit, or the chance should be very high that the TC will seek cover after the first PLING!

Edited August 7, 2015 by CarlWAW

[Bulletpoint]

 

I think either the first shot is  a hit, or the chance should be very high that the TC will seek cover after the first PLING!

 

This. The higher experience, the quicker he should be to take cover. Motivation should counteract this, but only if he is having a fire order. Logic being that he's then ordered to fire with the machinegun, and high motivation makes him want to carry out that order as long as possible.

[womble]

I'm not so sure that high Experience levels should make the TC duck any faster. Experienced TCs know the advantage that fighting unbuttoned gives them and will/should (if sufficiently high Motivation) stick their head up for longer. Might be a function of distance, or impacting-rounds-per-[interval], where the experienced TC can best judge when the incoming is "effective" rather than "speculative" or maybe we just shove our tanks much closer to the enemy infantry than any consideration about fighting unbuttoned IRL ever covered: at those ranges every TC should button because not to is suicide.

[Bulletpoint]

Well, I guess you can see it both ways. Maybe reading old tank commanders' memoirs would provide some clues about the best ways to model this.

 

I don't have any such books, so my opinion is just based on intuition: I agree tank commanders are a bit too hesitant to duck down.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Bulletpoint

[RockinHarry]

One thing terribly bothering me with tank crews and TC, is when in a tank with smoke mortar capabilities, like Shermans in CMBN and the TC got hit by small arms fire, then first reaction is to back up and pester the environment with heavy loads of smoke. I could understand it in the case of effective enemy AT fire, but small arms? The final effect is that for a couple of turns, nobody in the surrounding area of that tank will have LOS/LOF toward the source of small arms fire, particularly if it´s a previously spotted HMG or sniper, which otherwise could have been effectively dealt with either by the same tank, or nearby friendlies. I also noticed that smoke mortars and backing up will be used, if the TC is just beeing forced to button up, but not hit. Can´t tell if that´s anyhow tied to morale or experience levels, but I can´t imagine that it´s sort of SOP in WW2 under these circumstances.

[womble]

One thing terribly bothering me with tank crews and TC, is when in a tank with smoke mortar capabilities, like Shermans in CMBN and the TC got hit by small arms fire, then first reaction is to back up and pester the environment with heavy loads of smoke. I could understand it in the case of effective enemy AT fire, but small arms? The final effect is that for a couple of turns, nobody in the surrounding area of that tank will have LOS/LOF toward the source of small arms fire, particularly if it´s a previously spotted HMG or sniper, which otherwise could have been effectively dealt with either by the same tank, or nearby friendlies. I also noticed that smoke mortars and backing up will be used, if the TC is just beeing forced to button up, but not hit. Can´t tell if that´s anyhow tied to morale or experience levels, but I can´t imagine that it´s sort of SOP in WW2 under these circumstances.

I assume this is meant to simulate a reaction to fire from unknown infantry sources which might include ManPAT that the tank is vulnerable to. If you can't see your enemy and he might be able to hurt you, caution is probably advisable. Unfortunately the TacAI can't take into account such things as effective infantry screening which would preclude any infantry AT being able to reach... so it often ends up being the wrong thing to do.

[Sven]

They're stupid. Period. 

And it's very annoying. They also need to learn how to drive.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Sven