Is ingame Khrizantema F&F?

[exsonic01]

I'm always seeing 'guiding' crews when it launches two missiles, but I read that Khriz has two modes - laser (beam riding) and radar (full auto F&F). I think the Khriz should be launched in F&F, so the crews don't need to guide, but why I'm always watching Khrizantema crews guiding their missiles? Are they semi-active beam riding in game? 

 

Also, are there anyone knows what shells T-90AM, T-90A, and T-72B3 use in game? 

 

Thanks 

[Vanir Ausf B]

Also, are there anyone knows what shells T-90AM, T-90A, and T-72B3 use in game? 

 

3BM60 Svinets-2

[Abdolmartin]

Khrizantema can be launched in either SACLOS (operator tracks target, system automatically guides to it) or ACLOS (target has been acquired pre-launch, the operator doesn't track the target manually anymore after launch). However, ACLOS is a different thing from F&F. ACLOS is still guided by the launching platform, but it's completely automatic and doesn't require any more crew input.

[exsonic01]

What i know is that the missile has a radar and seeker, automatically use its own radar to find and track the target after launch.

[Kieme(ITA)]

I had an interesting situation during a PBEM, but what I thought about doing I didn't do, so could not experiment. Anyway, it could be interesting to set up a long range test scenario, order a Khriza to shoot and (during real time), order it a movement, such as a reverse, down a hill, or behind a house, and see if the missiles continue their path or drop.

[exsonic01]

I had an interesting situation during a PBEM, but what I thought about doing I didn't do, so could not experiment. Anyway, it could be interesting to set up a long range test scenario, order a Khriza to shoot and (during real time), order it a movement, such as a reverse, down a hill, or behind a house, and see if the missiles continue their path or drop.

It seems ingame Khrizantema is not F&F. 

 

It was not a test, but during a PBEM match. 

Abrams detected -> Khrizantema launched a missile -> during the AT-15 in the air, the Abrams moved fast to the area where Khriz crews can't see. -> AT-15 immediately piled to the ground, leaving a big crater. 

 

It behaves like SACLOS in CMBS. 

 

But by the contents I read, 

 

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1650.html

The system's unique feature is its two modes of guidance. In the primary mode both the priority target is tracked and the missile guided automatically by a millimetre-waveband radar by day and night under any battlefield conditions (dense smokes, dust, fires, fog, rain, snow, etc.), without the gunner having to obtain visual contact with the target. In the second mode which is semi-automatic laser beam riding, the sight must be kept on the target until the missile strikes home. The fire control system allows two targets to be engaged simultaneously, using different modes of guidance.

 

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/khrizantema.htm

The first mode of guidance, in which the missile is guided by a radar mounted on the left side of the roof, is automatic under both day and night conditions, and does not require the gunner to maintain visual contact with the target. This virtually means the implementation of the fire-and-forget principle. The second mode, in which the missile rides a laser beam aimed from the sight mounted on the front right side of the glacis plate, is semi-automatic and requires the sight to be kept on the target until the missile strikes home. The system allows two targets to be engaged simultaneously using either the same or different modes of guidance.⁷

 

These contents say that the AT-15 missile does not need direct sight of gunner, and work like F&F. Wikipedia says AT-15 uses ACLS and SCALOS. Who is the right explanation about this missile? 

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

It's fire and forget in the regards that it does not require additional input, but the missile is still reliant on the radar on the vehicle itself.  It's different than normal SACLOS in the regards the gunner does not have to do anything, but if the radar explodes/the vehicle catches fire the missile downrange will lose track and go wild.  It also means from my understanding that the radar itself on the launcher is limited in how many targets it can illuminate, which again gets away from "fire and forget" and into "novel SACLOS" in terms of gameplay

 

Real fire and forget means the missile once pointed at the target carries all the tools it needs to find the target post launch without assistance from the launcher unit.  This is not the case as far as I can tell with the Khrizantema.  What is confusing here is the "virtually" fire and forget which is to say "it behaves in a way we'd like you to think is fire and forget but is not strictly speaking fire and forget"

[cool breeze]

Panzer, I see what your saying but I wonder if the radar guidance might work without LOS, like can't those modern radar arrays set up their sub elements to make crazy interference patterns that let them make not straight lines with the radar "beams"?  Or are the "beams"  all going straight and the array just lets you point many of them in deferent precisely chosen directions in the frontal arc?  I've been under the impression it was the former case but I could easily be wrong and the latter idea is much more in line with the basic electromagnetics stuff I learned in school

[Thewood1]

Even if it doesn't need LOS, its not fire and forget.  You can't fire the missle and then pack up and run off somewhere else and set up with ever worrying about the missile.  It still needs the radar being active for the missile to guide.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Radar is a LOS only system.  It can see through environmental factors like fog and other weather, but something solid will reflect the radar waves (as that is effectively how radar "sees."  The sensor itself can be directed in different directions, but unless the radar emitter itself (so if it was mounted on a mast, or otherwise elevated the rest of the vehicle could be masked) can draw an uninterrupted line to the target it can neither acquire or guide a missile to it.  

[exsonic01]

Thanks panzer and others, now I know how AT-15 works. It needs the radar from the roof of the vehicle. So it doesn't need crew's control and guidance, but I can't say it is perfect F&F.  

[John Kettler]

exsonic01,

 

The thing is kind of like the old SA-2/V750K Dvina, in that it's command guided, but it differs in that it's a beam rider. The MMW radar finds, then locks onto the target, but the missile has no seeker. Instead, it relies on command inputs automatically generated on the Kriz end and passed to the missile. The Russians see this as being much harder to jam, since the 9M123 missile's guidance sensors are looking away from the target and are therefore much harder to reach via EOCM/ECM, as applicable. Countermeasures marts on the Kriz can be significantly greater than what can be crammed into the missile. This saves a fortune in seekers and related costs, but it's not just money, it's the ability to produce lots of the very things which most stress Russian military production: small precision electronics and electro-optics. Doing this stuff for the Russian Air Force is one thing, but doing it on the scale the Ground Forces need is something else again.

 

The missile is fireable in either guidance mode, simply by setting it on the fire control panel. Again, a huge savings in both cost and technical difficulty, starting with not needing two separate missil types to accommodate having two discrete on-vehicle guidance systems. Receivers are cheap, and the technology extremely well understood on Russian missiles. In radar mode, the missile simply stays in the MMW radar beam and is therefore a RBR (Radar Beam Rider) rather than a LBR. Thus, the radar guidance implementation takes many potential performance degradations out of the Hit Probability calculation. Once target lock has been achieved, it matters not how tired, demoralized, scared or startled the operator is. The same can't be said for the LBR, where a single flinch from, say, a close artillery burst in in FOV of the missile operator but not blocking LOS will suffice to crash the missile. Likewise, a disruption of the optical/IR LOS will also crash the missile, whereas, the RBR is immune to pretty much anything short of broadband obscurant, chaff or something similar which can stop a beam capable of operating in all WX, through visual and IR smokes and battlefield dust. Radar mode on the Kriz is thus a quasi F&F capability, in that it provides considerable benefits over SACLOS, but without all the costs and other issues which attend full F&F.
 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited July 13, 2015 by John Kettler

[John Kettler]

exsonic01,

 

Given the way these things are done, I'd expect the MMW radar to operate in two different ways: 1) Automatic S & T, with the computer selecting and prioritizing the targets; 2) Manual Override of the FCS to change the target before launch, or 3) simply direct Target Acquisition and transition to Lockon. From what I've read, even BSRs operating in, say, the 1-3 Ghz frequency range, can clearly distinguish a man, from a truck from a tank at tactically useful ranges, and because of its much higher frequency and concomitant resolution improvements over the BSRs, I'd expect the target discrimination function to be good enough to permit a practically hands off engagement if desired. Some player reports suggest BFC has degraded the radar's performance, under guise of not making the Kriz easily DFed and targeted. I have mounted what I deem to be a very strong military-technical-operational counterargument (pages 1 and 2 at link) regarding the BRM-3K RSTA system, but as I show, the BRM-3K case is but an example of a much larger issue.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[exsonic01]

Thank you John, you always teach me a lot. 

[John Kettler]

exsonic01,

 

You are most welcome. Happy to help. Speaking of help, if BFC has indeed nerfed the Kriz on the radar front, I hope it fixes this and soon. The Kriz is an important part of the Russian arsenal, and it's important its capabilities be properly and fully represented in the game, just as other weapons generally are. Obviously, the Kriz falls under the still unaddressed rubric of mast mounted sensors, sights and weapons.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

Edited July 18, 2015 by John Kettler

[MikeyD]

Every time my eye falls on this header my initial thought is - Khrizantema is "Fanned & Faved"?  "Fast & Furious"? And a couple others outside the bounds of forum guidelines.   

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

 

Without breaching the dreaded NDA, as interpreted by me (Never Disclose Anything), is it possible to say whether BFC intends to sort out the Kriz radar situation and when?

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[MikeyD]

I'm just a humble artist. As far as I know there is no Kriz radar situation to sort out.