Aircraft Friendly Fire

[Banex]

Okay that's it for me with aircraft in the WW2 modules.The second time in a scenario where i've been 45 mins into a game,used an FO to call in CAS and get my guys blown to hell and they're no where near the target area.Yup it happens in real life but when you've only got a couple of platoons in a scenario,that's a game over especially in a campaign scenario.Mind you none of my arty fell anywhere it's intended target either.Maybe my FO forgot his glasses.

 

I've no problem with arty misses it happens but those damned aircraft.Not saying anythings wrong with the game either.Delighted with version 3 of the engine and delighted to be back playing the game again after my rig blew last year.Just with the size of some scenarios,aircraft friendly fire can be a game breaker.So basically with aircraft you can either use them in the beginning of a scenario where without scouting properly you might hit nothing or reciting a 'Hail Mary' when you have called them in and hear them coming.

 

'Guys come back,they're our planes'

'Yeah that's the problem and that's why we're out of here.Good luck taking that hill on your own Commander'

[womble]

You're probably closer to historical if you never use the TacAir. Good choice.

Or you could use Point missions. They hardly ever go awry.

[General Jack Ripper]

That's been a problem going back as far as CMBO.

I remember I made a scenario in CMAK where a small German force tries to cut a road and ambush an Allied convoy with the help of some aircraft.

In spite of the enemy trucks and troops being in wide open desert, my own aircraft relentlessly bombed and strafed my own forces until I quit the scenario in frustration. From that time forward, I have never used aircraft when friendly troops are present. I only call them in in CMBN on the opening turn, and I have all my forces hide until they are finished shooting up the map.

In Shock Force, actual air-to-ground communication is possible, so aircraft are much more controllable, but even then I do not call in friendly air within 300 meters of my own positions.

[Banex]

Thanks Slim,sounds like good advice.I'll try putting my forces on hide and then just use the aircraft as soon as they are available.Maybe that has been my problem trying to use them like i use arty,as well as being too close,even though i thought my guys should have been okay.Never had a problem with CAS in Shockforce either.Thanks again for the tips.

[John Kettler]

Banex,

 

Hide is very important, as is as much separation you can get from the target area. I'd like to point out CM players routinely attack CAS targets half the distance or less between Danger Close and the target, then wonder why they got hit with their own CAS. JTACS of today would consider such actions to be criminal, insane, possibly both or maybe a leader in a truly dire predicament. The last isn't the general state for in-game CAS users. When that brace of P-47s comes thundering in (have heard one in flight live, it's what they do), the pilots are looking for troops, AFVs, trucks and such. If yours get seen first, bad things are likely to follow. Target recognition in the period wasn't good at all, and frequently, neither was target designation. The game provides no way to put out air recognition panels or put out colored smoke. Even so, that can be problematic, too. The Russian procedure was, with the planes coming from behind the front lines and flying toward the foe, was to fire purple flares in front of the forward trench. That way the planes now have a clear idea of where not to attack and that anything beyond that is Hitlerite in nature. All well and good unless you have gutless types in the second line of trenches who panic when Il-2s galore come in hordes on the deck, shaking the sky apart.  These chickens fire their flare pistols in the direction of the enemy, flares that land smack in the zone of the forward trenches. You can guess the ugly rest. 

 

CAS was, is, and almost certainly will remain dangerous. WW II wasn't the worst, for I can show you some pretty grim stuff from WW I when the nascent  Ground Cooperation aircraft bombed and strafed friendlies with devastating effects, but it certainly wasn't the heyday of CAS, either. CAS is a die roll, and your modifiers aren't good. If CAS is coming and tactical conditions permit, it might be a really good idea to pull back a couple of hundred meters, then hide. Now, let me show you actual footage of what the ground looks like to an Allied A-36 (Allison engined ground attack bird which ultimately became the P-51) fighter attacking transportation targets in Italy. From this, and granted it's B/W, it should be immediately clear you can't see ID markings at all. Troops are collections of ants when seen from 600 feet, too.

Director William Wyler of "Ben Hur" (10 Oscars) fame put together an unprecedented combat aviation documentary called THUNDERBOLT. He had a P-47 in it with nearly ten cameras, allowing a never before seen look at war up close. This is fully restored color film of Thunderbolt attacks on a bunch of different targets. The fun begins at 14:00. Believe you'll never look at WWII tactical air attack the same way again. Also, these guys are navigating by compass, landmarks and a map strapped to their thighs. 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler 

 

Edited March 11, 2015 by John Kettler

[Bulletpoint]

Also, in the game, a single team in foxholes can soak up most of the ammo from the attacking plane as it strafes the target repeatedly without causing much damage.

[BLSTK]

Good show, John. Thanks for sharing.

 

(You may also want to post these videos to the Fortress Italy forum, if you haven't already done so.)

Edited March 12, 2015 by BLSTK

[John Kettler]

BLSTK,

 

Thanks! I did post them. And kept going. Let's just say I found a particularly telling example of what can still go wrong with CAS. The quasi cross post is here. 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[Bulletpoint]

Interesting video, John. But it makes it seem American pilots were just roaming around firing at whatever with reckless abandon, is that true?

 

Supply trains and radio stations are sensible targets, but just shooting at random civilian houses or people in a field, wouldn't that constitute war crimes?

 

I found myself cheering when finally one of those planes crashed towards the end. Probably not what the makers of the video aimed for...

[John Kettler]

Bulletpoint,

 

Not exactly. Absent the opportunity to view high quality gun camera footage frame by frame, I'd be very hesitant to place much stock in parts of the narration. We can't see who was in the field or how many there were, but the pilot isn't going to go shoot up some Italian farmer plowing away. Given the amount of firing we saw, and it was a lot, it seems to me there's a distinct possibility, though not stated, infantry was caught moving in the open. Shooting up German vehicles parked practically at the house is fair game, as is bombing the house, for enemy occupation negates the prohibition. There may've been something with those other houses that was, well, off. There are distinct differences between the way civilian life looks from the air and the way military life looks. That may've been what underlay the attacks we saw. It may've been, as the movie line goes, "too quiet," therefore suspicious. There may've been intel the Germans were doing something like this, too. I can assure you, though, US pilots didn't go whizzing about shooting people and things willy nilly. All other considerations aside, every time you pulled the trigger, it activated the gun camera. The intel types and the CO went over that footage with a gimlet eye, and woe betide the pilot who blazed away and couldn't explain why. I was going to post a couple of pertinent vids, but my data rate just imploded. Can't get the vids to load at all. Not enough bandwidth, apparently.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Bulletpoint,

 

Verizon finally unstuck, allowing me to continue with the strafing.

 

Once you get past the seemingly interminable airfield attack sequences, you'll see P-39s, P-47s and P-51s shooting up all sorts of things, including a flak tower, but notably, barges. Lots of them.

 

 

Naturally, it's packed it in again. And it's not even Friday night!

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[Bulletpoint]

Bulletpoint,

 

Verizon finally unstuck, allowing me to continue with the strafing.

 

Once you get past the seemingly interminable airfield attack sequences, you'll see P-39s, P-47s and P-51s shooting up all sorts of things, including a flak tower, but notably, barges. Lots of them.

 

 

Naturally, it's packed it in again. And it's not even Friday night!

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

 

The incompetence of the Germans in WW2 never ceases to amaze me.  AA-guns to protect our airfield? Preposterous idea. Fighter cover? Pfah. No wonder they lost.

[BLSTK]

Phenomenal footage, John. Best enjoyed with a glass of sangria...I preferred this soundtrack to the propaganda of your previous selection.

 

As an aside, that narrator did justify the pilot's gunning down of an Italian farmer, saying "He's no friend of mine."

[Bulletpoint]

Phenomenal footage, John. Best enjoyed with a glass of sangria...I preferred this soundtrack to the propaganda of your previous selection.

As an aside, that narrator did justify the pilot's gunning down of an Italian farmer, saying "He's no friend of mine."

Oh right. That's perfectly ok then. God bless America.

[BLSTK]

All I'm saying is, no one has / had a monopoly on propaganda. Both sides did it. Many still do.

 

As for the narrator, there is something to be said for a man who loves his job...

[John Kettler]

BLSTK,

 

I heard that, too, but the impression I got was that he fired on a bunch of people but kind of personalized the experience by singling out one victim. Besides, that wasn't the pilot but the narrator. Who knows if the pilot said a thing that was recorded? I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but to make an attack on a single man out in the middle of a field makes no sense at all. If a single man was the target, the pilot is an idiot, a criminal,  and wasted an enormous amount of ammo to get him. Narrators of the period were altogether too cheery. There might be blood everywhere and friendlies' guts hanging in the trees, but these guys would find a way to sound enthusiastic and crack wise ("ya gotta love those gutsy Marines") in doing so. Had they been covering the attacks that turned Hamburg into an inferno, we could've had something like this: "In Hamburg, Germany the city is ablaze from end to end, with no relief in sight as British bombers of the RAF continue to exact hellish vengeance on the Nazis. Best firestorm ever!" I'm only half joking.

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[BLSTK]

I hear ya, Brother. But there is a difference between objective reporting of a Firestorm and breaking out the marshmallows while gloating over the body count.