John Kettler Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 slysniper, In one the four vids, forget which one, that ChrisND did showing off the APS, he rolled a platoon of T-90AMs into hull defilade position dead front of a pretty exposed, full frontal aspect, Abrams platoon on a low hill. Range? 750 meters. The T-90s saw the Abrams force first and opened fire. Several US tanks died outright, while others were badly hurt. The Russian force never came under fire, I believe. Sure opened my eyes! Regards, John Kettler 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsKb Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I get regular partial penetrations knocking out the tank or even setting it on fire on the right front turret at 1300 meters in some of the tests i've made. That leaves only the left frontal turret and upper front hull as effective protection at that range. What sort of ammo are the Russian tanks supposed to be using in Black Sea? I'm not sure an M1A2 could perforate it's own front turret (excluding weak points) with an M829A3 which is be superior to anything the Russians could field (due to ammo size limitations). The front left and right turret slabs in addition to the front left and right lower and upper hull (on both sides of the driver's compartment between the tracks) would likely be impervious to any Russian APFSDS save for a lucky shot or an odd angle. Range should play a minor role in perforation calcs, the M829A3 would still be doing 1500m/s at 1000 m (1555 m/s at 0m), probably more. These have spectacular BC and lose velocity very slowly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdwing Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 (edited) Yeah, shooting either of those slabs seems like the worst imaginable spot to aim. I'm surprised if they can pen either turret, weakpoints aside as said. I always thought they were the "Do Not Shoot" points Edited February 11, 2015 by Nerdwing 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antaress73 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) The left side of the turret is 920mm .. Right side much less because of vision equipment but around 750mm against KE. The svinets-2 the russians are using in the game can penetrate around 750mm (some say 780mm) at 2000 meters. Do the math. M829A4 penetrates 880mm at 2000 meters. Still 130mm more than the russian round because of longer length That still leaves the right turret slab of the M1A2 vulnerable to the russian round at under 1500 meters. Edited February 13, 2015 by antaress73 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antaress73 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 slysniper, In one the four vids, forget which one, that ChrisND did showing off the APS, he rolled a platoon of T-90AMs into hull defilade position dead front of a pretty exposed, full frontal aspect, Abrams platoon on a low hill. Range? 750 meters. The T-90s saw the Abrams force first and opened fire. Several US tanks died outright, while others were badly hurt. The Russian force never came under fire, I believe. Sure opened my eyes! Regards, John Kettler Did he give the US tanks a cover arc so they would not shoot back ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdwing Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) The left side of the turret is 920mm .. Right side much less because of vision equipment but around 750mm against KE. The svinets-2 the russians are using in the game can penetrate around 750mm (some say 780mm) at 2000 meters. Do the math. M829A4 penetrates 880mm at 2000 meters. Still 130mm more than the russian rounv because of longer length That still leaves the right turret slab of the M1A2 vulnerable to the russian round at under 1500 meters. http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/images/1/14/M1A2_SEP_frontLOS.jpg What vision equipment do you mean? The stuff on top? Its the same/mirrored on both turret slabs. Both 950. Edited February 13, 2015 by Nerdwing 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 He is probably thinking of Leopard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domfluff Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 About this close: (From Valley of Death) Kidding aside, I'd certainly want to engage at under 1,000m, and much closer if I can manage it. Russian armour is pretty quick, so you can often use the speed to outflank pretty effectively - trading shots at long range is only ever going to benefit the Abrams. The T-90 gets through their side armour easily enough, but I'd usually want to go in with a 2:1 or 3:1 superiority to ensure that the unit is combat effective (i.e., there's no point in wiping out a platoon of M1A1's, if they wipe out 75% of your armour in response - by Lanchester laws you'll have fewer casualties the more you outnumber them). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antaress73 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) What vision equipment do you mean? The stuff on top? Its the same/mirrored on both turret slabs. Both 950. My bad it was the earlier version of the M1 which had less armor on the right side. I stand corrected Edited February 13, 2015 by antaress73 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 About this close:M1A1.jpg (From Valley of Death) Kidding aside, I'd certainly want to engage at under 1,000m, and much closer if I can manage it. Russian armour is pretty quick, so you can often use the speed to outflank pretty effectively - trading shots at long range is only ever going to benefit the Abrams. The T-90 gets through their side armour easily enough, but I'd usually want to go in with a 2:1 or 3:1 superiority to ensure that the unit is combat effective (i.e., there's no point in wiping out a platoon of M1A1's, if they wipe out 75% of your armour in response - by Lanchester laws you'll have fewer casualties the more you outnumber them). Great advice, but you also have to be ready for the worst case situations also. Man, you know the enemy likes to try and get the odds in his favor also. Unless you only play the AI - then the enemy is very kind in helping you out in many things. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nsKb Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) The left side of the turret is 920mm .. Right side much less because of vision equipment but around 750mm against KE. The svinets-2 the russians are using in the game can penetrate around 750mm (some say 780mm) at 2000 meters. Do the math. M829A4 penetrates 880mm at 2000 meters. Still 130mm more than the russian round because of longer length That still leaves the right turret slab of the M1A2 vulnerable to the russian round at under 1500 meters. Max projectile assembly length for modified autoloader is somewhere in the 750mm region (The tank is something like 2.2m at its widest point between the roadwheels and you need room for autoloader parts), the projectile itself is generally a bit smaller at 720mm, due to the aerodynamic cap and tracer the penetrating rod itself is even smaller likely no longer than 640mm if other rounds are anything to go by. There are no pictures of Svinets-2 but the autoloader limitation is very much a problem for Russian ammo designers. Compare to the M829A3 projectile which is around 930mm with a penetrating rod of around 800-830mm. Given the autoloader limitations the chance of Svinets-2 perforating 900+mm of RHAe is very small if you ask me. Edited February 15, 2015 by nsKb 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antaress73 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) 730mm at 2000 meters for svinets-2... that's much less than M829A4.. and also it's the same armor .. 960 but facing the tank directly and because of the slope/angled perspective... if you place yourself a little to the side and if you hit those turret slabs at 90 degrees it's 700-750mm that you have to punch through so that's why I got two penetration on the right front turret slab at 830 meters from a T-72B3,, it was a 3 on 1 attack from multiple angles from the front. Edited February 15, 2015 by antaress73 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTR Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I'm interested where does the 730mm at 0 at 2km number comes from. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I'm interested where does the 730mm at 0 at 2km number comes from. Vasiliy Fofanov, AFAIK. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTR Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Ah, in that case, that's minimum guaranteed penetration , I think that's how Fofanov states his numbers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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