optimum range for the Russian tankers to engage the American M1’s.

[slysniper]

So, what is the optimum range for the Russian tankers to engage the American M1’s.

I was doing just some prelim. Test but have not had the chance to sit down and run it at multiple ranges.

I know I want to be close, but at what range is it that I take away the advantage to the M1’s.

I was running at 800 meters and The Russian armor was having no problems defeating the M1’s from the front, What is the max. range I should go to when dealing with them from the front.

[antaress73]

I get regular partial penetrations knocking out the tank or even setting it on fire on the right front turret at 1300 meters in some of the tests i've made. That leaves only the left frontal turret and upper front hull as effective protection at that range.

[exsonic01]

Within 2km. The closer, the better.

 

For t90ams or t90s in the game, long range out-boxing style engage against M1A2 sep is just suicide. In real world, Russians T90 has inferior detect / observe ability and accuracy at long range like ~4km. (M1A2 sep has x50 optics, while T90's optics has only x2.7 mode and x12 mode. M1a2 can start engaging from around 4km or more, while T90s hardly could find the target from that range. This is great difference, you can also check that from Steel Beast Pro). T90s are suffering from lack of penetration power from at such long distance. (US m829a3 "super sabot" is truly a beast, while Russian two-pieced APFSDS is not enough for DU frontal armor) I think this game simulated this situation quite accurately.

 

In my quick battle test, I managed T90s to approach within at least 2km from m1a2s, where the T90's optics is beginning to have same level of accuracy with M1A2's, and AP power increases enough to damage the m1a2's armour. Against m1a2, I think 2km is the maximum distance that you can do something with t90s.

Edited February 10, 2015 by exsonic01

[dan/california]

There is probably not a lot of point to heavy testing until the first patch comes out. They have already stated there is an ERA problem.  There is probably no easy way to sort how much that matters.

[exsonic01]

There is probably not a lot of point to heavy testing until the first patch comes out. They have already stated there is an ERA problem.  There is probably no easy way to sort how much that matters.

 

Reactive armors are not that helpful against KE shots. Kontakt-5 works nicely against HEAT shots, but can't provide enough protection against modern western APFSDS, such as m829a3. So I think this matters still with ERA bug, in case of tank battles.

Edited February 10, 2015 by exsonic01

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

The generation of rounds used by the M1A2 in game are ones designed around zipping through Russian ERA, Kontakt-5 100% for sure, later generations there's a strong indication that it's been at least tested against later generations of Russian ERA type systems.

 

ERA isn't going to change much against the Americans to be honest.  The ATGMs are coming through the roof, the KE is designed to defeat ERA.  It's also not going to charge Russian tank optimal engagement ranges because the Abrams ERA is strictly hull and turret sides. It's going to make being Ukrainian a lot harder though.

 

In terms of actually fighting Abrams, you want to get close.  Abrams are a lot better at spotting, and they're lethal at all ranges.  You need to either mass on them, or be engaging from suboptimal directions to the Abrams position.  

[slysniper]

Lets make this a little clearer. It is not a question of trying to be stupid and attack at long range. It is a question as to if I am going to engage My Russian armor from the front and expect to get rounds on target, with or without friendly losses. i want to know at what range I can expect kills.

 

So far I know I can do it at 800 meters, From one post here it sounds like 1300 meters is already starting to push my luck.  So it sounds like maybe I need to do my own test and no one else knows what the game is giving.

[MG TOW]

Are all the Russian Ukraine 125mm guns the same used in their different tank models?

[Stagler]

Reactive armors are not that helpful against KE shots. Kontakt-5 works nicely against HEAT shots, but can't provide enough protection against modern western APFSDS, such as m829a3. So I think this matters still with ERA bug, in case of tank battles.

 

Relikt - what the T-90AM is equipped with ingame - is supposed to have a 30% degradation on KE shots.

 

Also Steel Beasts T-90 is not T-90AM, nor is it T-90A. It is T-90S export model. Although it does have the welded turret instead of the early cast one - the optics package currently on the T-90S and T-90A and T-90AM are all derivatives of the Thales Caterina-FC.

 

I say we wait for the patches.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Stagler

[Codename Duchess]

I managed to ambush an Abrams from behind on Valley of Death with two T-90AMs tucked behind a woodline under a rise as it drove down a rode 200m away. Even though I knew it was coming (other units) and had them facing the right way for a rear quarter shot as it passed, the Abrams laser warning system (presumably) still let it kill BOTH tanks before firing a shot. I only killed it when a BMP-3 sacrificed itself to strip the APS using 30mm and an RPG gunner got off two tandem warheads to the side of the turret to knock it out (all 4 crew survived).

That's when respect turned to outright fear of these beasts.

[slysniper]

Well, it is good to know it is not worth getting into it too much til the patch is released.
 
I was just wanting to get a feel for what my odds ratio needed to be to challenge the M1's from the front if I needed to. So I just started out at the 800 meter mark thinking it might be a good range to get a kill and was surprised to be getting frontal kills on every shot. So when ERA is working correctly. It sounds like maybe I will not be extending that range much farther..
 
The M1will likely always get it shot off first, but It can only kill one at a time. So with numbers, all things are possible, even killing the Beast.

Edited February 10, 2015 by slysniper

[exsonic01]

Relikt - what the T-90AM is equipped with ingame - is supposed to have a 30% degradation on KE shots.

 

Also Steel Beasts T-90 is not T-90AM, nor is it T-90A. It is T-90S export model. Although it does have the welded turret instead of the early cast one - the optics package currently on the T-90S and T-90A and T-90AM are all derivatives of the Thales Caterina-FC.

 

I say we wait for the patches.

Oh, I didn't knew that the T90AMs in this game equipped Relikt armor. (Thought it was Kontakt5 in game) Thanks to let me know. If that is the case, I agree that the power of "super sabot" would somehow degraded more or less.

About optics, I thought T90AM and T90S have same system. If not, could you let me know how T90AM differs with source? Thank you very much.

[antaress73]

As for Relikt and Kontakt-5 .. I am under the impression that it doesnt stop the round cold or not. It degrades its armor piercing ability so that the armor behind the ERA can stop it. The M829A4 is supposed to defeat Relikt but from what I understand, it's simply designed to be more resistant to the effects of Relikt. At short and normal range,  it will probably be not degraded enough so it has a great chance of piercing the armor behind it. At long-range, probably not , and that's a big plus for the Russians if they can close to killing distance. Anyway. The average engagement distance in Europe (including most of Ukraine) is 1000-1200 meters because of LOS and at that distance the M1A2 is vulnerable frontally.

Edited February 10, 2015 by antaress73

[antaress73]

I managed to ambush an Abrams from behind on Valley of Death with two T-90AMs tucked behind a woodline under a rise as it drove down a rode 200m away. Even though I knew it was coming (other units) and had them facing the right way for a rear quarter shot as it passed, the Abrams laser warning system (presumably) still let it kill BOTH tanks before firing a shot. I only killed it when a BMP-3 sacrificed itself to strip the APS using 30mm and an RPG gunner got off two tandem warheads to the side of the turret to knock it out (all 4 crew survived).

That's when respect turned to outright fear of these beasts.

 

That's simply bad luck, not the norm How couldnt at least one of them get a killing shot off ? from lasing to shooting its 1 second at most for these modern tanks. Even with smoke you still shoot because the other tank doesnt have the time to move enough.

 

How did it happen exactly ? 

 

I'm pretty certain that at short distances (500 meters and less), crews are taught not to lase so not to warn the target. Sabot has a very flat trajectory so if the tank fills your reticle you just point and shoot at short distances. This should be implemented in game.

[slysniper]

I'm pretty certain that at short distances (500 meters and less), crews are taught not to lase so not to warn the target. Sabot has a very flat trajectory so if the tank fills your reticle you just point and shoot at short distances. This should be implemented in game.

Good point, I will have to check that out. It would be interesting to see if they thought of that in the game.

 

With what little testing I have done. The M1 fires so fast it can get a round off and deploy smoke before the enemy returns fire, Thus a Russian tank spots, is blocked from firing because of m1's smoke, fires its smoke because of being lased, but too late, hit and killed.

[antaress73]

Good point, I will have to check that out. It would be interesting to see if they thought of that in the game.

With what little testing I have done. The M1 fires so fast it can get a round off and deploy smoke before the enemy returns fire, Thus a Russian tank spots, is blocked from firing because of m1's smoke, fires its smoke because of being lased, but too late, hit and killed.

With two tanks attacking from behind ? As soon as the abrams is warned that he is lased, he drops smoke . In this case he turns the turret completely , lase back then shoots before the smoke obscure his own vision and before the t-90AM shoots ? The T-90AM is fast on the trigger too. A second between lasing and firing accurately. This behavior is almost robotic from the crew not to mention that the motion of the turret must be violent. How many Gs did they take ? Lol

I haven't seen such a situation in my games though . My tanks managed to kill M1s on a regular basis, especially the T-90AMs.

Edited February 10, 2015 by antaress73

[slysniper]

Don't miss-understand, I have no clue as to how he lost both tanks from a flanking position.

 

I was just saying that during testing. From the front  the M1's were normally getting a kill before the first smoke screens were going up. So no matter what, they generally were always getting one kill, no matter what the odds were against them.

 

In real battles in the game I am sure there is plenty of chances for the T90's to get the drop on and first shot off on the M1's

[Stagler]

Relikt is designed to ping the round off at an angle slightly. Its mechanism is tenuous at best.

[slysniper]

 

I'm pretty certain that at short distances (500 meters and less), crews are taught not to lase so not to warn the target. Sabot has a very flat trajectory so if the tank fills your reticle you just point and shoot at short distances. This should be implemented in game.

 

This is not how the game is working, they are lasing, even at basically point plank range. So there is one thing that should be pointed out as maybe a feature that could be adjusted.

[Nerdwing]

I hope it can, its pretty damn unfortunate when it happens

 

The Stryker MGS in Chris's stream being the most notable example off the top of my head

[agusto]

I'm pretty certain that at short distances (500 meters and less), crews are taught not to lase so not to warn the target. Sabot has a very flat trajectory so if the tank fills your reticle you just point and shoot at short distances. This should be implemented in game.

 

This is a very good point antaress73. Could you go to helpdesk and open ticket, just make sure someone from BFC sees it? Lasing targets and 100 meteres is really stupid.

[Thewood1]

I would have to double check, but in Steel Beasts Pro, the procedure that you are trained on is to always lase before shooting from an M1A1/A2.  Couple caveats; the procedures might be outdated based on development cycles...and it is only a simulator; be it one used by quite a few militaries to train tankers.

 

I know there are a couple real tankers on the boards and maybe they'll step in and clarify instead of everyone assuming.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

 

 

Relikt is designed to ping the round off at an angle slightly. Its mechanism is tenuous at best

 

Pretty much.  It's why the "heavy" sabots (M829A3 and A4) are expected to more or less plow through and into the target

 

Re: Lasing

 

Depends on the target.  Most FCS systems require the range input or something similar, but the US training sabot for instance (which is not as much power as "warshots") has no drop until about 1200 meters.  If we're shooting from a known distance, or it's just super obvious the tank is close, no laser isn't totally nuts.

 

On the other hand, at that range the sabot will be blowing the target apart about the same time about the same time the target crew realizes something is happening.

 

Addendum:

 

There are also fire commands for shooting without using the LRF, but they're generally systems used because the LRF is down, not because we're taking her stealth or something.

Edited February 11, 2015 by panzersaurkrautwerfer

[antaress73]

We were talking more about russian tanks, since their tendency to lase when sneaking up on an M1 alerts it and sometimes end up totally blowing its advantage because the M1 is so quick at reacting and shooting. At short range ( under 500 meters) it should not be a problem, boresight shooting.

Edited February 11, 2015 by antaress73

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Totally, but if something is a good idea in one tank, very rarely is it a bad idea in other tanks.  If there's a Russian armor crewman on here wouldn't mind hearing how they run it though.