Russia Angered By Bulgarians

[DMS]

The Soviets invaded Poland, Finland, and Lithuania, in '39 and until the Nazis interrupted their project, to crush the states, rob the economies, murder, deport and starve the peoples, and spread their brand of 'socialism'. This is a very straightforward fact. That's what they did.

I am not ready to that level of discussion, sorry.

Just a small reference:

On 1 October 1938 the area was annexed by Poland following the Munich Conference. The Polish Army, commanded by General Władysław Bortnowski, annexed an area of 801.5 km² with a population of 227,399 people. Within the region originally demanded by Nazi Germany was the important railway junction city of Bohumín. The Poles regarded the city as of crucial importance to the area. Polish leader, Colonel Józef Beck believed that he must act rapidly to forestall the German occupation of the city. At noon on 30 September, Poland gave an ultimatum to the Czech government. It demanded the immediate evacuation of Czech troops and police and gave Prague time until noon the following day. At 11:45 a.m. on 1 October the Czech foreign ministry called the Polish ambassador in Prague and told him that Poland could have what it wanted. The Germans were delighted with this outcome. They were happy to give up a provincial rail centre to Poland; it was a small sacrifice indeed. It spread the blame and confused the issue. Poland was accused of being an accomplice of Germany – a charge that Warsaw was hard put to deny.

The Polish side argued that Poles in Zaolzie deserved the same rights as Germans in the Munich Agreement. The vast majority of the local Polish population enthusiastically welcomed the change, seeing it as a liberation and a form of historical justice. But they quickly changed their mood. The new Polish authorities appointed people from Poland to various key positions from which Czechs were fired. The Polish language became the official language. Using Czech (or German) by Czechs (or Germans) in public was prohibited and Czechs and Germans were being forced to leave the annexed area. Rapid Polonization followed. Czech organizations were dismantled and their activity was prohibited. Czech education ceased to exist. About 35,000 Czechs emigrated to Czechoslovakia by choice or forcibly. The behaviour of the new Polish authorities was different but similar in nature to that of the Czech ones before 1938. Two political factions appeared: socialists (the opposition) and rightists (loyal to the new authorities). Leftist politicians and sympathizers were discriminated against and often fired from work. The Polish political system was artificially implemented in Zaolzie. Local Polish people continued to feel like second-class citizens and a majority of them were dissatisfied with the situation after October 1938. Zaolzie remained a part of Poland for only 11 months.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaolzie#Part_of_Poland_.281938.E2.80.931939.29

The same "polonisation" was made in western Ukraine and western Belorussia. Until 1939.

There were no good, nice regimes. If you think that they were, you know little about them.

[Ales Dvorak]

1) They were occupied by nazis and liberated by red army

2) They were happy with new nazy order and were conquered by soviets

And that is it.

Not in Yugoslavia.

[waclaw]

DMS

history is interpreted from the causes to the effects - in conflict with Zaolzie this Czechs were the aggressors

Historian Richard M. Watt writes, "On 5 November 1918, the Poles and the Czechs in the region disarmed the Austrian garrison (...) The Poles took over the areas that appeared to be theirs, just as the Czechs had assumed administration of theirs. Nobody objected to this friendly arrangement (...) Then came second thoughts in Prague. It was observed that under the agreement of 5 November, the Poles controlled about a third of the duchy's coal mines. The Czechs realized that they had given away rather a lot (...) It was recognized that any takeover in Teschen would have to be accomplished in a manner acceptable by the victorious Allies (...), so the Czechs cooked up a tale that the Teschen area was becoming Bolshevik (...) The Czechs put together a substantial body of infantry – about 15,000 men – and on 23 January 1919, they invaded the Polish-held areas. To confuse the Poles, the Czechs recruited some Allied officers of Czech background and put these men in their respective wartime uniforms at the head of the invasion forces. After a little skirmishing, the tiny Polish defense force was nearly driven out."[31]

Besides this "liberation" is 05.mln victims of Stalinist terror, officers murdered in Katyn, the Soviet soldiers raped about 100 thousand Polish women, looting, prison Polish patriots, introduced by force communism.

Poland was a bone by which fought two dogs

[JasonC]

To liberate means to bring people liberty. If you take over their government and rule them by external force, that's conquest. You might be better than the last pack of thugs who conquered them, or there might not be a dime's worth of difference between you - irrelevant to the question. Unless they are freely in charge of their own destiny afterward, including free to tell you to go home (or to some warmer place slightly lower down), they aren't liberated because liberated implies "has liberty afterward".

That anyone alive today defends in any respect either of the two most murderous tyrannies in human history is a disgrace to the entire race of mankind, but especially to those who do so.

[DMS]

DMS

history is interpreted from the causes to the effects - in conflict with Zaolzie this Czechs were the aggressors

Historian Richard M. Watt writes, "On 5 November 1918, the Poles and the Czechs in the region disarmed the Austrian garrison (...) The Poles took over the areas that appeared to be theirs, just as the Czechs had assumed administration of theirs. Nobody objected to this friendly arrangement (...) Then came second thoughts in Prague. It was observed that under the agreement of 5 November, the Poles controlled about a third of the duchy's coal mines. The Czechs realized that they had given away rather a lot (...) It was recognized that any takeover in Teschen would have to be accomplished in a manner acceptable by the victorious Allies (...), so the Czechs cooked up a tale that the Teschen area was becoming Bolshevik (...) The Czechs put together a substantial body of infantry – about 15,000 men – and on 23 January 1919, they invaded the Polish-held areas. To confuse the Poles, the Czechs recruited some Allied officers of Czech background and put these men in their respective wartime uniforms at the head of the invasion forces. After a little skirmishing, the tiny Polish defense force was nearly driven out."[31]

Besides this "liberation" is 05.mln victims of Stalinist terror, officers murdered in Katyn, the Soviet soldiers raped about 100 thousand Polish women, looting, prison Polish patriots, introduced by force communism.

Poland was a bone by which fought two dogs

Just like Poland ocupied West Ukrainian republic in 1921. After that - polonistation, catolisation, colonisation with former polish militaries.

In case Poland would have pro-Britain goverment, there would be repressions against pro-Soviet Polish patriots, communist sympathizers. Like in Greece, for example.

Do you have evidence, that in Soviet zone of ocupation rapes were more often, than in American, French or British? I guess no.

What about Katyn - I don't understand a sense of doing that. Germans had reasons - not to feed so many people. And for Soviets? Also different "small" details like German shells. (yes, NKVD used German weapons to confuse... Germans?) And soviets never did it before and after, while nazis did it many times. Ok, I don't know - if this was done by soviets - it's a crime.

To liberate means to bring people liberty. If you take over their government and rule them by external force, that's conquest.

Sure. The thing is that there were no goverment in case of occupied by nazis Eastern Europe counties.

[sburke]

JDo you have evidence, that in Soviet zone of ocupation rapes were more often, than in American, French or British? I guess no.

Umm actually yes. Don't look now, but I believe your bias is showing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/books/rape-by-american-soldiers-in-world-war-ii-france.html?pagewanted=all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_liberation_of_Poland

We won't even discuss the horror Russians perpetrated on German women.

[sburke]

Sure. The thing is that there were no goverment in case of occupied by nazis Eastern Europe counties.

Bulgaria had a gov't and it wasn't even Nazi occupied and that is where this discussion started. Kind of appropriate to go back.

[John Kettler]

sburke,

That's quite the book writeup there. Wow!

The Russian mass rapes against German women are the subject of a 2008 film, and the Daily Mail has a great piece on the context for the film, together with why neither the Germans nor the Russians wanted it shown. The scope, scale and viciousness of the Russian rapes (raping liberated female KZ inmates, for one) is almost incomprehensible (/was until what I read at the second link). Two million in Germany alone, and not just by follow-on echelons and support troops, either. Reports of such actions went to Beria, himself a mass rapist!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1080493/Stalins-army-rapists-The-brutal-war-crime-Russia-Germany-tried-ignore.html

This site lowers the boom on, well, everyone. The first link, using elementary principles, puts the number of German rapes, in Russia alone, at 10 million!

http://uncensoredhistory.blogspot.com/2012/08/rape-by-german-and-waffen-ss-soldiers.html

Below that article is a string of links to other mass WW II military rape stories: Russians, Americans (both during and after the war), Japanese and others. Here's one of the major pieces on Russians vs German women and the tremendous propaganda urging on the Red Army to use them at will and with full moral sanction.

http://historyimages.blogspot.com/2011/10/mass-rape-of-german-women-when-germany.html

A hideous business all around!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Nidan1]

I guess the Russians would call it "getting even" after what the Germans did in the areas of the Soviet Union that they occupied from 1941-1944. No need for links or youtube videos, its documented.

Neither side behaved like Boy Scouts.

[waclaw]

Just like Poland ocupied West Ukrainian republic in 1921. After that - polonistation, catolisation, colonisation with former polish militaries.

In case Poland would have pro-Britain goverment, there would be repressions against pro-Soviet Polish patriots, communist sympathizers. Like in Greece, for example.

Do you have evidence, that in Soviet zone of ocupation rapes were more often, than in American, French or British? I guess no.

What about Katyn - I don't understand a sense of doing that. Germans had reasons - not to feed so many people. And for Soviets? Also different "small" details like German shells. (yes, NKVD used German weapons to confuse... Germans?) And soviets never did it before and after, while nazis did it many times. Ok, I don't know - if this was done by soviets - it's a crime.

Sure. The thing is that there were no goverment in case of occupied by nazis Eastern Europe counties.

nonsense , Ukrainians have complete freedom , no one not forced to do anything - they could practice their religion , to learn their language , etc. they even had their deputies in parliament , and the army were Orthodox chaplains (as Jews or Armenians , Tatars)

the facts are such that murdered and imprisoned our patriots ( O.5 million killed) , robbed , raped our women - that someone somewhere else was doing it too - does not justify the Soviets

besides, we are talking about facts, not about what would happen if, in Poland say "if grandma had a beard, it would be a grandfather"

[DMS]

Umm actually yes. Don't look now, but I believe your bias is showing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/21/books/rape-by-american-soldiers-in-world-war-ii-france.html?pagewanted=all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_liberation_of_Poland

We won't even discuss the horror Russians perpetrated on German women.

Actually first link says that rapes were a common problem. It always happens, even in homeland, even in peacetime. When millions of men are mobilised and put in hard conditions - they are inevitably. In US army, in UK army, in Frensh army, in Soviet army. May be as Soviet army was larger - there were more rapes, I don't know. There are no documents.

Bulgaria had a gov't and it wasn't even Nazi occupied and that is where this discussion started. Kind of appropriate to go back.

There was a some sort of revolution, when pro-german king was dethroned, wasn't it? Bolgarian army didn't resist Red army and soon joined allies.

Beria, himself a mass rapist!

Wow!

nonsense , Ukrainians have complete freedom , no one not forced to do anything - they could practice their religion , to learn their language , etc. they even had their deputies in parliament , and the army were Orthodox chaplains (as Jews or Armenians , Tatars)

Ukrainians think different.