Ashenz73 Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 This site only seem to show the Ukrainian losses. Apart from that, according to wikipedia those material losses seem 'affordable': 180~ T-64BM "Bulat" 600 T-64BV 1,000T-64B According to the information that 'came to me' the Ukrainians have made a lot of progress so it seems strange there are only ~5 non Ukrainian destroyed vehicles on that website. Because Ukrainians are the ones suffering serious loses. In fact disproportion in loses is mindnumbing. The numbers in wikipedia are misleading, majority of listed armor is inoperational - can serve as spare parts and replacements though. The progress you write about is sheer propganda, insurgents stepped back and built their defences upon Donetzk, Gorlovka, Lugansk. All attempts to encircle those cities have failed so far as well as efforts to cut the road connections between them. Most recent situation: http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/kot_ivanov/71733898/22025/22025_original.jpg Video interview with Ukrainian troops about the loses (with english subtitles): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POQqlvKjDgg Anyhow I'm happy it didn't escalate in an (all out) open conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Maybe it is not an all out conflict yet but Russian troops are surely involved. Russian artillery suports the insurgents and small Russian specialist units operate along them. Not to mention the steady flow of weapons and mercenaries. Very good study on the reasons of the conflict: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashenz73 Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 The Russians have nothing that can reliably penetrate the M1A2 across it's frontal arc. I do not want to question your qualities as Russian weapon expert, but I do not think it is good to assume Russians can't or don't want to produce weapons able to penetrate armor of main tank of their biggest enemy. To be honest, I think that real capabilities are a matter of a guess to some extent - due to lack of 100% reliable data but as we had no real life modern gear confrontation so far I find your superiority confidence disturbing while waiting for credible game with some realism implemented. Certainly a lot is going under the 'official' surface. Just to remind you that Russian military experts are still discussing the new jamming system tested against 'Donald Cook' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Because Ukrainians are the ones suffering serious loses. In fact disproportion in loses is mindnumbing. The numbers in wikipedia are misleading, majority of listed armor is inoperational - can serve as spare parts and replacements though. The progress you write about is sheer propganda, insurgents stepped back and built their defences upon Donetzk, Gorlovka, Lugansk. All attempts to encircle those cities have failed so far as well as efforts to cut the road connections between them. Most recent situation: http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/kot_ivanov/71733898/22025/22025_original.jpg Video interview with Ukrainian troops about the loses (with english subtitles): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POQqlvKjDgg Maybe it is not an all out conflict yet but Russian troops are surely involved. Russian artillery suports the insurgents and small Russian specialist units operate along them. Not to mention the steady flow of weapons and mercenaries. Very good study on the reasons of the conflict: http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault What the hell are you smoking, the insurgents are getting their asses wiped now. If Russia doesn't outright invade soon they are going down. All the Russian leadership has already fled to Moscow unless you also believe that BS that Strelkov decided to take a months "vacation". Yeah right And yeah it is the fault of the west, yep we told Russia to invade a foreign country. Yep all our fault because we promoted democracy. Wtf kind of reasoning is that? Hey maybe the Ukrainians just looked at the standard of living in Poland and what they could expect under the current cronyism fostered by Russia and said "we want that". Nice try. Russia is a dictatorship with an inferiority complex that finally tried to bully a country that is not gonna rollover. Putin is gonna have to eventually eat crow on this one. I for one will thoroughly enjoy him trying to spin this as a victory. The one thing the article did get right is Putin does have something to fear. As he continues to enact laws limiting the rights of Russians eventually someone is gonna say, enough I want democracy too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashenz73 Posted August 22, 2014 Author Share Posted August 22, 2014 What the hell are you smoking, the insurgents are getting their asses wiped now. Bold statement about me and the conflict for someone living on the far side of the globe and buidling his knowledge from US and EU media -both fueled by Ukrainian official propaganda. I can tell you that you are wrong. Ukrainians launched several assaults that cost them thousands of lives and yet they lost all advances they made during last week. Morale of regular army is shattered, soldiers openly accuse their commanders of treason. They face well trained mercenaries as well as determined and motivated locals- expertly commanded by Russian army officers and equipped with most modern Russian gear. How many more lives they are going to sacrifice to make another push? Time is running out. If they can't win till November it is a game over. All the Russian leadership has already fled to Moscow unless you also believe that BS that Strelkov decided to take a months "vacation". Yeah right If you are more polite I can tell you about Strelkov's conflict with "Vostock" batallion commander Alexandr Chodakovski, the reason of the conflict and why Strelkov was forced to leave the position. And yeah it is the fault of the west, yep we told Russia to invade a foreign country. Yep all our fault because we promoted democracy. Staging a coup to remove a legally elected president (chosen in a free, direct elections by majority of voters) is democracy? You really expected that engineering a hostile regime change near the Russia's border would go with no response? And please...stop that 'democracy' bs. Everyone already knows it is just crap excuse to ruin a country (like Iraq) and steal its resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chops Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Sburke - you do appear to be quite misinformed about what is going on between Ukraine and Russia, and the motives of the U.S/NATO. It is hard to believe that a lot of Americans still think that the information they get from mainstream media in the U.S. is accurate, factual or real. The reality is that anyone relying on mainstream media or the rhetoric of public officials to be informed on any topic, will sadly be misinformed instead. Anyway, this Thread is not supposed to be about politics, so how about some updates on CM: Black Sea ChrisND? A video of Russian MBT's might get this Thread back on track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Well, we are allowed to discuss geopolitic events in a civil manner. Keeping civil , I agree that the 'western' view as hosted by 'our' main stream media is not complete or accurate. It is, in my opinion, naive to think that 'The West' was not involved in the current (or previous) turmoil in the Ukraine. There are large Western economic and other strategic interests in the Ukraine (influence/power and money, is what makes the world go round. Same for Iraq/Syria/Gaza conflicts). I don't believe the 'coup' was just Ukraine people that revolted because they wanted to have the same prosperity as Poland. The Ukraine corruption was / is probably worse than in Russia, in large part because of the Oligarchs holding the strings there. Some of them are oriented towards 'he West', others with Russia. Both are smelly. Now Russia is not any hair better and has also been deeply involved in Ukraine internal affairs for a very long time and it is of no surprise that after Russia's straw-man Janoekovitsj was ousted , Russia secured their uber important warm water port of Sevastopol. USA or western foreign policy is not at all about roses, even if our own media outlets makes us believe it. There is also propaganda among the Western 'free' media, they are free in so far they report directly to the shareholder. If you look at real independent media (journalist shareholders), of which there aren't too many, you'll find the news to be much more balanced. Regarding the current state of the conflict: I have also read several reports about the high casualties on Ukrainian side and the bad state of the Ukraine army. However, they have made substantial gains and I don't believe that there are second to none losses on the side of the Seperatists / Russian mercs/clandestine operatives. The seperatists won't just 'fall back into defensive positinos' because they want to. There probably is a reason as to why Russia did sent clearly identifiable Russian army armored vehicles into Ukraine last week. Anyhow Russia will surely hold on to the Crimea and I don't see either side backing up regarding East Ukraine. But how far will Putin go? Seeing how deep Ukraine committed I don't see them giving up without an all out fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 A video of Russian MBT's might get this Thread back on track. Plus many on that! We have seen the Oplot-M and T-64BV but, apart from the editor screen, no visuals of the Russian MBT's. We did see their AFV's and APC's though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Look you guys are using sources that have continually been proven to be lying and self contradictory. If you chose to continue to believe those sources that is your choice but stop trying to pretend they have any real validity. As to the line about the coup. So just exactly how did the Russia government transition occur from soviet era not to mention that farce in Crimea. Pro Russian advocates are way out in left field criticizing anyone else's political process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethaface Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Look you guys are using sources that have continually been proven to be lying and self contradictory. If you chose to continue to believe those sources that is your choice but stop trying to pretend they have any real validity. As to the line about the coup. So just exactly how did the Russia government transition occur from soviet era not to mention that farce in Crimea. Pro Russian advocates are way out in left field criticizing anyone else's political process. Agreeing about Pro Russian advocates being way out I'm neither Pro Russian or Pro West, although being an open minded westerner I would prefer Obama over Putin. That doesn't mean that I can't be critical about the west too. Anyway, having not posted any sources regarding geopolitic events myself (on this page), which sources do you think are reliable? Edit to add that there are no sources that I will take truth from for granted. Everybody has an interest to serve, so be sure to add pinches (or heaps in case of FOX/RT) of salt as deemed appropriate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 ...... this should be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Bold statement about me and the conflict for someone living on the far side of the globe Well that is quite the straw man argument. You think the truth is more evident the closer you are to the conflict geographically. and buidling his knowledge from US and EU media -both fueled by Ukrainian official propaganda. Here is the rub: the main difference between the so called western media and the Russian media is the western media may have biases but there are multiple voices and points of view to review and in the end they want to find some version of the truth so if one media outlet gets something wrong the others are more than happy to scoop them and point out the mistake. So, while the perfect picture is not always available right away the truth comes out. Some times it takes weeks some times longer but it does come out. There are checks and balances built in. The Russian media is so controlled that they basically speak with the voice they are told. There are no checks or balances and no likely hood that the truth will ever come out. So yeah I am sure there is plenty of BS coming out of official sources in the Ukrainian government and the western media might even get duped from time to time but not over the long term. Those western media outlets have their own people in country now so the wool can only be pulled so far and for so long - by either side. It is, in my opinion, naive to think that 'The West' was not involved in the current (or previous) turmoil in the Ukraine. There are large Western economic and other strategic interests in the Ukraine (influence/power and money, is what makes the world go round. Same for Iraq/Syria/Gaza conflicts). I don't believe the 'coup' was just Ukraine people that revolted because they wanted to have the same prosperity as Poland. Well it depends on what you mean by involved. I think the suggestion that western operatives created the protest and all the other conspiracy theories is well just that, insane. If I am wrong and something like that did happen it will come out in the western media (note I am well aware of the story spun by Russian about but it is jut that, a story). On the other hand I am sure that there was plenty of diplomatic advice and discussion to help the group succeed once it started. Heck there might have even been some organizational help here and there but that does not mean it was created by the west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Agreeing about Pro Russian advocates being way out I'm neither Pro Russian or Pro West, although being an open minded westerner I would prefer Obama over Putin. That doesn't mean that I can't be critical about the west too. Anyway, having not posted any sources regarding geopolitic events myself (on this page), which sources do you think are reliable? Edit to add that there are no sources that I will take truth from for granted. Everybody has an interest to serve, so be sure to add pinches (or heaps in case of FOX/RT) of salt as deemed appropriate Absolutely agree there is no source that has been completely accurate. The western media for the most part has actually refused to print half of what is coming out even if the source is the OSCE who can pretty much be regarded as unbiased. The Russian media on the other hand has contradicted itself so often or been caught in the most ridiculous lies as to be completely untrustworthy. The Ukrainian media has had some major issues at times in it's reporting but overall far better than Russia or the insurgents. There are a ton of sources of info. You just have to filter stuff out and the claims of the insurgents are pretty easy to discard considering how ridiculous they usually are. As it stands the SBU is getting more and more hard data on Russian involvement as Russia gets more blatantly involved. Troop listings, soldiers identification documents etc. the problem for the west is if that stuff gets in the public eye our folks are gonna demand our governments ratchet up their support for the Ukraine. Oh and the Russian govt says it has no troops or equipment there so any statement from the pro Russian side that they are is contradicting Putin himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 Splitting this from the Black Sea thread and closing it. Read this sticky post carefully: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113993 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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