Support Units - Fighting as Front Line Inf

[Michael Emrys]

Funny, that is exactly what I was saying above In regimental systems, no matter if you were the cook, truck driver, mortarmen, etc, you were infantry first...maybe not as good as the frontline sections/platoons, but infantry first. There is no way that infantry raw recruits would be told: "oh yeah, go man that 6lb AT gun!" "The what?"

Excuse me, but I think you are painting with too broad a brush and conflating some very different things. To reiterate what I said before, about the only time cooks or logistics drivers, company clerks and the like were pressed into service as line infantry was when the situation was truly desperate, not as a matter of course. Sure, if they were surrounded and cut off they might be told to lock and load, but the rest of the time they were told to stay out of the way of the real soldiers.

CM is a game and of course once you have bought and paid for it you are entitled to play it any way you want, but take note that to throw all those guys into the front lines on a routine basis is merely gamey, pretty much on a par with the famous jeep rush.

Michael

[Warts 'n' all]

I have to agree with Michael. If A.F.V. crews, Artillerymen and Truck Drivers e.t.c. were told by an Infantry Officer to "Attack" the enemy, he would have been told to "Go forth and multiply".... If they were being polite.

[db_zero]

I recall from reading about the Battle of the Bulge it got so desperate cooks, clerks, musicians and other rear echelon troops not trained or accustomed to fighting were pressed into action and got butchered, but served their purpose. One passage described how these troops walked into an area that got hit by a German artillery barrage that caught some of their troops early on. They could see the body pieces in the trees. Not exactly a good initiation to what they were about to embark on.

I think if these sort of troops were placed in a defensive position and defending they could do ok, but you really couldn't expect a whole lot. Ask them to assault a position or do something really difficult like assaulting a build up area and you're asking for a real disaster.

Everyone knows every Marine is a rifleman first. Be interesting to hear from those who really know, just how much you could reasonably expect to get in a desperate situation from non direct combat units and personnel who got pressed into action. Being trained as a good shooter helps, but I'm would assume you need to get advanced infantry training and constantly maintain proficiency. I'm not sure if non direct combat units do this as there are work and budget issues involved.

[ChappyCanuck]

I don't think any historical commander was ever called "gamey" by employing whatever means necessary in order to achieve the mission. Period.

[Erwin]

makes me wonder if crews that have lost their primary weapon should be more "skittish" so that they really only get used in desperate defense situations. Don't think they should be effective in offense.

[Michael Emrys]

makes me wonder if crews that have lost their primary weapon should be more "skittish" so that they really only get used in desperate defense situations. Don't think they should be effective in offense.

That was my point. Not that you could never use them that way, but that their performance should be very seriously degraded with hits on experience, leadership, and morale, all three. See my post #21.

Michael

[Doug Williams]

Tank crews are already "auto panicked" when they lose their ride.

[sfhand]

My understanding is that a few patches ago weapons teams were tweaked to inhibit their use of small arms. In my experience this holds true after the crew served weapon is knocked out, i.e., they are much more reluctant to fire than regular infantry.

Also, after watching the Pacific, based in part on Eugene Sledge's book, it was not uncommon to ask mortar team members to leave their mortars behind and go on patrol with regular infantry.

[Erwin]

I am not an expert in these matters, but I do know one needs to be careful when comparing Pacific Theatre SOP's and European Theatre.

[Michael Emrys]

I am not an expert in these matters, but I do know one needs to be careful when comparing Pacific Theatre SOP's and European Theatre.

More importantly, one needs to be cautious in comparing Marine Corps practice to Army practice. They were two very different military cultures. If you want to learn more about this issue, you might take a look at Pacific Blitzkrieg: World War II in the Central Pacific by Sharon Tosi Lacey. It doesn't give you the whole story down to the squad level, but it should give you enough to get a taste of the different mind sets.

Michael