Formations

[Dim]

This is related to CMSF, but for some reason any attempt to visit that area of the forum logs me out, and logging back in just redirects me back to the log in page. This should be applicable here too though.

Ive seen that others have noticed that squad and team leaders seem to get fragged a lot more than other members of the squad. Ive lost count of how many times I end a mission with no casualties apart from every single squad leader. I think this is due to the way the game handles the formations. when units are given a move order, they generally form a single file in the order to which they're listed in the UI.

Is it possible to change the order the units are arranged in the UI, so that squad and team leaders are no longer on point all the time. Im not very schooled on RL tactics, but it doesnt seem wise to have your officers taking point anyway. as far as I know, its usually the automatic rifleman on point.

Sorry if this has been covered before, I did try searching.

-James.

[Lt Belenko]

This is related to CMSF, but for some reason any attempt to visit that area of the forum logs me out, and logging back in just redirects me back to the log in page. This should be applicable here too though.

Ive seen that others have noticed that squad and team leaders seem to get fragged a lot more than other members of the squad. Ive lost count of how many times I end a mission with no casualties apart from every single squad leader. I think this is due to the way the game handles the formations. when units are given a move order, they generally form a single file in the order to which they're listed in the UI.

Is it possible to change the order the units are arranged in the UI, so that squad and team leaders are no longer on point all the time. Im not very schooled on RL tactics, but it doesnt seem wise to have your officers taking point anyway. as far as I know, its usually the automatic rifleman on point.

Sorry if this has been covered before, I did try searching.

-James.

Split squads or breakout a scout team or two to take point.

[H1nd]

I almost always split my squads but I would still love to see realistic basic formations, like ability to advance in line for example. It's basic military stuff everywhere. The NCO's and junior officers are bullet magnets in rl even with squad formations due to the nature of their job. But there is absolutedly no sense in the way CM handles infantry movement atm.

[AstroCat]

Yeah I noticed this "bug" as well, always the leaders are first to go. I reported it in the support forum.

[Artofwar]

When the Marines were dealing with the Japanese a lot of the Marine Leaders of all positions got taken out same as with a Company I read about during WWII often the privates don't move much and go forward into the attack until a Corporal or Sgt. moves forward that due to the odds of battle eventually gets hit.

[Dim]

Thought it might be wise to include some sort of examples of what I am proposing to fix this "problem". I have no idea what implementing this would involve, or if it would indeed alter the formations pixeltruppen adopt when given a move order, so any feedback is appreciated.

To be clear, im not implying this is a bug, just something that could perhaps be a simple fix for a bit more realism in the way our troops move.

Please excuse my sloppy editing skills, and the use of paint in the first place ha.

[Childress]

I almost always split my squads but I would still love to see realistic basic formations, like ability to advance in line for example. It's basic military stuff everywhere.

Controversial assertion.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1478104&highlight=LINE+ABREAST#post1478104T

Would the addition of realistic formations be worth the effort to implement them? The money line from Steve:

Absolutely not. The small degree of beneficial change (i.e. a realistic use of formational doctrine) is way out of proportion to the costs of having them.

He did consider adding your skirmish line in future versions. But photographic evidence is meager even for this formation.

[womble]

It's not a bug, it's observer bias. And leaders exposing themselves.

First, your leaders don't always "march" at the head of their file. Second, they do die more often than "random grunts" because they get allocated the prime viewing point by the TacAI which more often than not is the most exposed location in the AS as well; it's not just movement deaths that mean the leaders die early. They also spend more time spotting (I think - this could just be another artefact of my own observer bias; I've not kept anything like detailed enough records to be sure), so catch random shrapnel more often, too, as they "take a knee" to see over low obstructions.

Of course, if you want to run some controlled tests to prove your assertions, then we'd all be happy to see them, I'm sure.

[Dim]

It's not a bug, it's observer bias. And leaders exposing themselves.

First, your leaders don't always "march" at the head of their file. Second, they do die more often than "random grunts" because they get allocated the prime viewing point by the TacAI which more often than not is the most exposed location in the AS as well; it's not just movement deaths that mean the leaders die early. They also spend more time spotting (I think - this could just be another artefact of my own observer bias; I've not kept anything like detailed enough records to be sure), so catch random shrapnel more often, too, as they "take a knee" to see over low obstructions.

Of course, if you want to run some controlled tests to prove your assertions, then we'd all be happy to see them, I'm sure.

As I said, im not implying this is a bug. I did search around and see that it had been discussed before, but didnt see anybody mention anything about the TacAI assigning leaders to better spots etc, nor suggest this particular potential solution. Im obviously new to the series, as you can tell by my post count, the inner workings of the game are still a complete mystery to me.

I would be happy to run some tests based around what I have suggested, if it is even possible. Although given the nature of the game it wouldnt really be possible to reproduce the exact same situation over and over to test it properly. The best I could do would be to run the same scenario through 10 or 20 times without the "fix", and again with it, and note how many times the squad leaders are the first to get hit.

Again, if my "fix" is even possible.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Whatever the reason for it, my own impression is that team leaders get hit more often regardless of where they are walking or sitting. The reason it is so irksome is that in many formations the team leader has the squad's only SMG, and since SMGs are near the bottom of the buddy aid weapon acquisition priority once the leader goes down the squad has irrevocably lost a bit chunk of its short range firepower.

[Sgt Joch]

its more a case of observer bias.

I used to be convinced the leader was being killed more often, but if you test it out and keep an eye on it, you will see he has no more chance of being killed than other squad members.

I actually tested this out for another reason over the weekend. The leader sometimes walks in front, sometimes in the middle and sometimes in the back.

[womble]

As I said, im not implying this is a bug.

No, that was AstroCat...

I would be happy to run some tests based around what I have suggested...

Good man!

if it is even possible. Although given the nature of the game it wouldnt really be possible to reproduce the exact same situation over and over to test it properly.

Indeed, that's why testing tends to* need lots of iterations to a) develop your methodology, and get some statistically relevant results. If, for example, you ran 1000 pTruppen across a field under light, long range interdiction, without them ever stopping, and made careful counts of the fallen, and careful observations of the position in the "stick" of the leader, and found that the leader ran at the front very often/always and that the leader died more often than other positions, you'd have found some interesting results. Seeing the same qualitative results with just a platoon wouldn't be nearly so interesting.

Unfortunately, we don't get to play with any fixes, so as users all we can do is collect data on extant behaviour, and point out where we think it deviates from what we expect.

* An exception is where the hypothesis is "[Thing] never happens", where you only have to find one exception to disprove it.

[Artofwar]

Wait a minute hold the phone according to the version 2.11 Manual on page 61 the first paragraph has the sentence, "Anybody that has served in the military, or studied it in historical texts, knows that some people should never have been put in charge of anything except washing dishes (and you don't necessarily want to be the one eating from those dishes). CM dutifully simulates these poor leaders." Therefore, maybe we should not sweat it to much if sometimes they get shot up ..... just kidding.