AoC Winter 1941 poll plz for next fix

[Big Al]

We have some things straightened out for the winter effects. But I would like to know from everyone if the amount of damage Germany takes is reasonable, too much, or too little.

Current damage averages to 2.5. Each German unit can take between 2 and 3 points in all 3 effects.

Comment on the following.

A) Too little damage

Just right

C) Too much damage

D) Too much damage exchange for extra moral hit.

[Aryaman]

I would vote B, but I would like to see some damage inflicted also in 1942 winter. Germans were better prepared by then but still suffered, at any rate the Soviets still had a good advantage fighting in winter and I would like that represented

[llhnickerson]

B. The German hit is just enough to slow them down, but not enough to completely give the advantage to the Soviets. I am in 1942 now and I noticed that the Soviet AI, in general but especially in Winter 1941, is rather timid when counterattacking German forces. That is a bigger issue than changing the winter effects IMO.

[Ivanov]

I'd vote for D. There shoud be less direct loses but the unit morale and readiness should be greatly affected. The effect on Germans should apply for the 1941/42 winter only. It would be nice if during the subsequent years, there was a winter attrition effect on the units with the poor supply ( both on Germans and Soviets ). For example units that have their supply value below 5, could suffer from the harsh winter conditions.

Another serious issue that needs to be addressed in AOC, is the combat during the winter months. Currently it is practically impossible to conduct large offensive operations during the winter. It is frustrating gamaplay wise, because you have a lot turns when there is little or no action. It is also ahistorical, because the Soviets were conducting large winter offensives each year during the war. Just to mention the most famous ones: the 1941/42 post Moscow offensive, the 1942/43 post Stalingrad offensive and the 1945 Vistula-Oder Offensive. Currently it's simply impossible to pull something like this off in the game, due to the winter penalties on the attacking units. I am aware that this penalty was incorporated to AOC from the earlier versions of SC2, but keep in mind that in AOC the turns cover much shorter periods of time, hence there are more winter turns, when there is nothing going on. Also, the AOC system should take into the account the specific conditions of the Eastern Front - i.e that the Soviets were able to conduct large scale offensives during the winter. Maybe it could be addressed by an introduction of a DE, regarding the preparation of RED Army for the winter fighting. For example at the beginning of each November the Soviet player would be asked if he wants to spend a considerable amount of MPPs' in order to prepare his troops for the winter offensive. Saying "yes" would negate the winter penaly on the attackig Soviet units. The cost of the DE should be high, maybe 50MPP during each winter turn. The Red player would need to decide if he prefers to stay put during the winter and rebuild his forces or to go on a risky and costly offensive. Of course it's just a thought and would need to be thoroughly tested in terms of the game balance, before any potential implementation.

[Aryaman]

I'd vote for D. There shoud be less direct loses but the unit morale and readiness should be greatly affected. The effect on Germans should apply for the 1941/42 winter only. It would be nice if during the subsequent years, there was a winter attrition effect on the units with the poor supply ( both on Germans and Soviets ). For example units that have their supply value below 5, could suffer from the harsh winter conditions.

Another serious issue that needs to be addressed in AOC, is the combat during the winter months. Currently it is practically impossible to conduct large offensive operations during the winter. It is frustrating gamaplay wise, because you have a lot turns when there is little or no action. It is also ahistorical, because the Soviets were conducting large winter offensives each year during the war. Just to mention the most famous ones: the 1941/42 post Moscow offensive, the 1942/43 post Stalingrad offensive and the 1945 Vistula-Oder Offensive. Currently it's simply impossible to pull something like this off in the game, due to the winter penalties on the attacking units. I am aware that this penalty was incorporated to AOC from the earlier versions of SC2, but keep in mind that in AOC the turns cover much shorter periods of time, hence there are more winter turns, when there is nothing going on. Also, the AOC system should take into the account the specific conditions of the Eastern Front - i.e that the Soviets were able to conduct large scale offensives during the winter. Maybe it could be addressed by an introduction of a DE, regarding the preparation of RED Army for the winter fighting. For example at the beginning of each November the Soviet player would be asked if he wants to spend a considerable amount of MPPs' in order to prepare his troops for the winter offensive. Saying "yes" would negate the winter penaly on the attackig Soviet units. The cost of the DE should be high, maybe 50MPP during each winter turn. The Red player would need to decide if he prefers to stay put during the winter and rebuild his forces or to go on a risky and costly offensive. Of course it's just a thought and would need to be thoroughly tested in terms of the game balance, before any potential implementation.

I agree, something to allow the Soviets winter offensive capabilities, right now winter turns except the first one are just reorganizing turns, which is very favourable to the German player

[Big Al]

There is a secret to the Soviet Winter attack. Not sure if anyone has figured it out yet. Its to simple ATTACK and ATTACK and ATTACK. You might take 1-0 or 2-1 but eventually it wears the Germans down to where they can't do a summer 42 offensive early.

There were a couple games, of the 20 I play tested, where I tried this strategy and 1942 came out fairly historical. The Germans had to prepare for a summer offensive. Their moral was so low they had to wait till June to attack. But I could not attack them much in the summer/spring. I had to attack in winter with the effects.

So winter time for Soviets? Yes I conduct pretty much across the board offensives.

Counterattacking is a problem. I do have some scripts in there for it very specifically but the Soviets really start hammering in 1943. I just don't feel they have enough umpf, as the A.I., to do anything in 1942. I know what a human should do in 1941/42 as the Soviets and I can't replicate that with the A.I. because it is far too complex.

[steel32]

I would have to go with B as this seems to even things out for the Soviets giving them a chance to regroup, attack, push the Germans slightly back and at the same time allow the Germans to not lose too much and if planned right still have a 42' offensive.

[Strategiclayabout]

I think it's somewhere between B and D .

Maybe make the Soviet Winter effect drop all axis supply sources in USSR to 0 when it strikes ? You'll have a clear choice of maximizing your offensive power as long as you can or sacrifice late/last 1941 blitzkrieg turns to prepare defensive lines.

[Big Al]

I think it's somewhere between B and D .

Maybe make the Soviet Winter effect drop all axis supply sources in USSR to 0 when it strikes ? You'll have a clear choice of maximizing your offensive power as long as you can or sacrifice late/last 1941 blitzkrieg turns to prepare defensive lines.

I had that in Brute Force actually.

[Big Al]

One problem with reducing the supply to zero for resources is that the HQs still got supply of 1 = 5. So the impact wasn't as much as I hoped. The Moral hits do work as intended originally in BF as they are in AoC.

But everything can be adjusted.

[Strategiclayabout]

- Isn't that fine ^^ ? I mean german units won't be able to operate for a while, they will also lose some movement ability and in difficult terrain they'll have to cluster around HQs to be in supply.

- By the end of 1941 the front is quite large so Germans won't be able to have HQs to cover everywhere. Actually, soviet winter offensive made big advances when Germans retreated/left holes in their lines and went deep in the rear. Where Germans defended in organized hedgehogs there was only limited gain and Soviets had to bypass them.

[Big Al]

hindsight always interferes with game development Look at the tank post I made also.

[Strategiclayabout]

Haha was just answering it .

Anyway, it's only my opinion: I didn't play as many games as developers or testers so I'll be fine with what you decide .

[xwormwood]

You have to look into the facts WHY the Germans suffered from the Russian Winter.

And than you need to use these facts in the game. You have the option to use decision events. It is not true that the Germans didn't have any winter equipment. The Equipment was there, behind the front lines.

Make it the players decision how much he wants to suffer.

Deliver winter equipment or not.

Deliver winter equipment sooner, later, very late , too late, not at all.

You could introduce a dozen of decision events to play with these dates and the effect. If you want to.

[Big Al]

I would like to know when as the Germans you feel you are going to lose the game. When does the game turn? Winter, Spring, Summer?

As the Soviets when do you feel the games turn? Winter, Spring, Summer?

Think about these two questions carefully. I need to determine if this is the result of a harsh winter or the soviet summer tanks.

I would like unit ratios in March, April, and May.

I would like general condition of the German army in terms of experience.