Shreck team needs an mp40

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Yes. As I said in my post, I don't believe it would be appropriate to allow Panzerschreks or Bazookas to fire in anything but the largest type of building structure but as for Panzerfausts, that's another thing entirely.

We're talking about a black powder blast that represents approx. 10% of the blast of a typical grenade with it all directed out the rear of a tube, away from the firer. Common sense tells me how that should be modelled, but with the rider that any other infantry unit in the same action spot as a TH team within a small building runs the risk of injury or adverse morale effects or both.

Regards

KR

[Ranger33]

I don't get the stubborn position of "Firing from inside buildings was not ideal, therefore units should NEVER be allowed to fire from inside buildings." It's a rather arbitrary stance in a game where so many things are abstracted as a compromise for real life vs realistic development goals. It makes the game less fun and less balanced, without making it more realistic, which is poor design IMO.

The urban combat in CMSF is a blast (pun intended) and "feels" much more realistic, the side which uses the best tactics will usually prevail. Sending infantry ahead with armor in support is the only way to avoid certain losses to RPGs. I realize modern RPGs aren't exactly the same thing as WW2 stuff, but it's been demonstrated in this thread and others that it was done, just not always the best idea.

I hope we see some improvements in urban combat before Berlin, Stalingrad, etc. Otherwise I don't see myself getting those titles/modules.

[Georgie]

From Wikipedia:

Firing the (Panzerschreck) generated a lot of smoke both in front and behind the weapon. Because of the weapon's tube and the smoke, the German troops nicknamed it the Ofenrohr ("Stove Pipe"). This also meant that Panzerschreck teams were revealed once they fired, making them targets and, therefore, required them to shift positions after firing. This type of system also made it problematic to fire the weapon from inside closed spaces (such as bunkers or houses), filling the room with toxic smoke and revealing the firing location immediately. This was in contrast to the British PIAT's non-smoking spigot mortar system, or the Panzerfaust's short burst launch system.

As far as the toxic smoke goes I'm pretty sure that it wasn't as toxic as an 88mm explosive round exploding in the room. So if a shreck team and an infantry team was in the same room with a tank outside gunning for them and the shreck team wouldn't take a shot at the tank because it would break somebodys rule I'll bet you that the infantry team would take the tube away from them and do it themselves.

[womble]

"Achtung Panzer!"

[Vwoosh]

"[Koff]"

"[Gasp]"

"Wo ist die Tur!? Wir mussen gehen!"

[Clatter]

"Verdamte Tisch!"

"Ach! Das ist der Schrank!"

[Woosh-boom]

[silence]

Apologies for the O-level German...

[General Jack Ripper]

All I can say is, I sure do miss firing a 'schreck or bazooka from a 2 story light building, and having the building burst into flames.

I remember playing Carentanv2 for CMBO. A column of three shermans came down the road over by the manor house, a 'schreck guy fired, destroyed the first tank in the column, ran in panic from the burning house, and was killed by machine gun fire from the second tank.

Ahhh, good times...

[Childress]

Yes. As I said in my post, I don't believe it would be appropriate to allow Panzerschreks or Bazookas to fire in anything but the largest type of building structure but as for Panzerfausts, that's another thing entirely.

Panzerfausts like Shrecks cannot, as far as I can can determine, be fired indoors in CM2. From a website somewhere in the ether:

The Panzerfaust cartridge consisted mainly of a long hollow tube, which was filled with gun powder which acted as the propellant. It was percussion ignited, meaning it was similar to a bullet which used a firing pin to strike a flint which would cause a spark and ignite the gun powder. The resulting gases would then push the Panzerfaust projectile outward, thrusting it forward with kinetic energy. The backblast of the weapon was very hazardous and could seriously injure a bystander standing behind up to three meters away. Safety regulations required a backward clearance space of at least 10 meters, otherwise the fiery gases can be deflected back, causing serious burns on the back and shoulders.

[ArgusEye]

Still? Seriously?

[Childress]

Yes, because it contradicts the earlier citation. We have to get this right!

[Vanir Ausf B]

"Safety regulations" tend to error on the safe side. We know that in combat regulations get ignored when lives are at stake. We have significant amounts of empirical evidence that these types of weapons can and are fired with much less clearance than 10 meters.

[Alan8325]

If firing from indoors is so dangerous, couldn't BF just add a chance that it would result in a 'red' or 'yellow' casualty? Since the player has to assume the role of the squad (or team) commander anyway, he should be able to decide whether to take that risk or not.

[JonS]

If firing from indoors is so dangerous, couldn't BF just add a chance that it would result in a 'red' or 'yellow' casualty? Since the player has to assume the role of the squad (or team) commander anyway, he should be able to decide whether to take that risk or not.

What about the AI - Tac and Strat. Who decides for them?

[Lee]

It makes sense they would have an Mp40 with them in the panzerjager team for close fighting, if needed, and one would think it would be fairly normal for them to have it. So unless there is evidence showing they rarely had them, then it would be a good addition in the next patch.

Even if it's not in the official TO&E for standard wehrmacht panzerjager teams to have them, are there photos and such showing they did in fact use them?

[LukeFF]

Definitely not this guy. He's wearing ammo pouches used with the Kar98:

[winkelried]

If firing from indoors is so dangerous, couldn't BF just add a chance that it would result in a 'red' or 'yellow' casualty? Since the player has to assume the role of the squad (or team) commander anyway, he should be able to decide whether to take that risk or not.

And the Panzerjäger to ignore the stupid suicidal order right away and shoot the squad commander (by accident naturally)?

[winkelried]

It makes sense they would have an Mp40 with them in the panzerjager team for close fighting, if needed, and one would think it would be fairly normal for them to have it. So unless there is evidence showing they rarely had them, then it would be a good addition in the next patch.

Even if it's not in the official TO&E for standard wehrmacht panzerjager teams to have them, are there photos and such showing they did in fact use them?

There was no need for an MP for the Panzerschreck teams since they would operate under the cover of other troops, e.g. an infantry squad. And that's what you should do in CMBN too. To use a single Bazooka/PIAT/Panzerschreck team is just not tactically sound. So no need for an MP for the team.

[Georgie]

There was no need for an MP for the Panzerschreck teams since they would operate under the cover of other troops, e.g. an infantry squad. And that's what you should do in CMBN too. To use a single Bazooka/PIAT/Panzerschreck team is just not tactically sound. So no need for an MP for the team.

Would it be a disadvantage or an advantage for the shreck team to have an MP40 and if it would be a disadvantage then why? The work of a shreck team is necessarily close work so a little more fire power at close range would seem to me to be an advantage.

[winkelried]

Would it be a disadvantage or an advantage for the shreck team to have an MP40 and if it would be a disadvantage then why? The work of a shreck team is necessarily close work so a little more fire power at close range would seem to me to be an advantage.

Sure - that an MP would be an advantage. But it just wasn't there in history. And since the proper tactical employment of a Panzerschreck would be embedded with additional infantry. Since CMBN strives to get us a feeling as historical as possible there should be no MP in a Panzerschreck team.

[Georgie]

Sure - that an MP would be an advantage. But it just wasn't there in history. And since the proper tactical employment of a Panzerschreck would be embedded with additional infantry. Since CMBN strives to get us a feeling as historical as possible there should be no MP in a Panzerschreck team.

Yes, you are correct, if there is no record of any sort of an MP 40 in the shreck team then it would be more realistic to keep it that way in the game. I do wonder though how many teams picked up an MP40 on their own? The shreck teams probably didn't live long enough to get the opportunity.

[Lee]

Oh I agree, if they didn't use them in reality, then they shouldn't be included. I'm just wondering if it was fairly common in pratice for the teams in the field to bring an Mp40 with them, just in case they needed it, even if it wasn't a part of their official equipment list. Would be cool to seem some photos on that.