Michael Emrys Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 You are not only the battallion commander in CMBN. You are every commander from the team leader up to the battallion commander. Indeed. People do not seem to find it unreasonable to act as team leader to give facing, area fire, hide, or other orders. Why should they make a mighty objection as to whether a team should deploy its main weapon this turn or not? If BFC decided to eliminate the Deploy order, why not have teams automatically Hide at the end of any string of movement orders? Seems to me that just as good an argument can be made for that. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rake Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 ... I have never, in my entire experience playing CMx2, wanted to wait, stationary and undeployed, with a crew served weapon. I can hear others saying they do this, I can recognize it must be so for them, but I still see no tactical point in it, in practice. A hacky way of getting fire discipline for a low ammo mortar is as close as I've come to seeing such a reason that makes sense to me, and personally I either stay out of LOS entirely or just use an arc for that purpose. Jason, I'll give you one reason why I intentionally do not deploy at the end of a movement order... Occasionally, I'll have an MG or mortar team trailing behind my recon. The recon is, besides looking for intel, searching for spots that have LOS to certain areas of the map. I know that I can plot a move order to an action spot and check LOS from there, but this just tells me what the line-of-sight is from ground level, not eye level. With the recon truppen sticking their heads up, I get a much better idea of what the support team might see once they're in place and deployed. Meanwhile, the trailing support teams will be slightly behind, usually hiding, in woods, weeds, wherever... I don't want them wasting time to set up when I know they won't be staying there long. If I'm not sufficiently back in the woods, there's the chance the team could be spotted while moving around to deploy. Again, I can check LOS before I get there, but if the enemy has eyes on the area, they may see my guys with their heads up, while I'm only able to check LOS along the ground until I arrive at the spot. And, I certainly don't want them wasting time packing up if spotting rounds suddenly start dropping in the area. I'd settle for just having a clearer indication of the orders state, sharply distinguished from its actual accomplishment. Even just changing the toggle display states to "deploy weapon", "pack up weapon", would be enough. I'd rather I didn't have to order it at all, but I'd settle for that cosmetic change. I absolutely agree that there should be greater differentiation between states in the UI. I've improved this somewhat by adjusting contrast and brightness on my monitor while playing the game. But it's a pain in the @$$ doing this all the time... especially using the same monitor that I use for making color corrections to my photography. It's even worse when running the game through my television... my tired, old eyes can't read what's on the screen from 10' away. I will not go through the contrast adjustment routine with the tv... jm$0.02 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Jason, I'll give you one reason why I intentionally do not deploy at the end of a movement order... Occasionally, I'll have an MG or mortar team trailing behind my recon. The recon is, besides looking for intel, searching for spots that have LOS to certain areas of the map. I know that I can plot a move order to an action spot and check LOS from there, but this just tells me what the line-of-sight is from ground level, not eye level. With the recon truppen sticking their heads up, I get a much better idea of what the support team might see once they're in place and deployed. jm$0.02 Absolutely. Maybe I just run my forces completely wrong (more than likely true ) but I usually do not deploy unless I have a clear LOF/LOS to where I believe I have a target. Usually however if I am below a ridge line I will not deploy. The idea as you have pointed out being to reduce the amount of time it takes to get the unit to the position i want once I have gotten some recon in position to give me an idea of what I need to be doing. Time is critical, deploying without a viable target knowing I will be needing to move seems pretty pointless, detrimental in fact. I think we are up to $0.04 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Jason, I'll give you one reason why I intentionally do not deploy at the end of a movement order... Occasionally, I'll have an MG or mortar team trailing behind my recon. The recon is, besides looking for intel, searching for spots that have LOS to certain areas of the map. I know that I can plot a move order to an action spot and check LOS from there, but this just tells me what the line-of-sight is from ground level, not eye level. With the recon truppen sticking their heads up, I get a much better idea of what the support team might see once they're in place and deployed. You don't get a disadvantage as long as there is no pack up time. Meanwhile, the trailing support teams will be slightly behind, usually hiding, in woods, weeds, wherever... I don't want them wasting time to set up when I know they won't be staying there long. If I'm not sufficiently back in the woods, there's the chance the team could be spotted while moving around to deploy. Again, I can check LOS before I get there, but if the enemy has eyes on the area, they may see my guys with their heads up, while I'm only able to check LOS along the ground until I arrive at the spot. And, I certainly don't want them wasting time packing up if spotting rounds suddenly start dropping in the area. That is a completely unrealistic gameplay aspect anyway as long as you have to wait for a full turn of a gun to move it in the direction it just came from. It doesn't improve by putting more other loads on the player. I absolutely agree that there should be greater differentiation between states in the UI. I've improved this somewhat by adjusting contrast and brightness on my monitor while playing the game. But it's a pain in the @$$ doing this all the time... especially using the same monitor that I use for making color corrections to my photography. It's even worse when running the game through my television... my tired, old eyes can't read what's on the screen from 10' away. I will not go through the contrast adjustment routine with the tv... This doesn't have anything to do with your eyes. It has to do with pulling in things into explicit player control that don't belong there in a game of this scale. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 This doesn't have anything to do with your eyes. It has to do with pulling in things into explicit player control that don't belong there in a game of this scale. What scale are we discussing here? I have played and worked on several scenarios that are platoon vs platoon. As well I have played full battalion and even regimental size battles. The scale can be pretty far ranging. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 What scale are we discussing here? I have played and worked on several scenarios that are platoon vs platoon. As well I have played full battalion and even regimental size battles. The scale can be pretty far ranging. The only thing that this makes better is that you probably have no medium towed guns in there that right now require excessive babysitting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Jason, I'll give you one reason why I intentionally do not deploy at the end of a movement order... Occasionally, I'll have an MG or mortar team trailing behind my recon. The recon is, besides looking for intel, searching for spots that have LOS to certain areas of the map. I know that I can plot a move order to an action spot and check LOS from there, but this just tells me what the line-of-sight is from ground level, not eye level. With the recon truppen sticking their heads up, I get a much better idea of what the support team might see once they're in place and deployed. I do the same thing, but more in order to determine if there is anything that can fire upon the spot i had in mind for my mortars/MG than to check LOS (although i am doing that too, if i already have my scouts in position.). That is a completely unrealistic gameplay aspect anyway as long as you have to wait for a full turn of a gun to move it in the direction it just came from. It doesn't improve by putting more other loads on the player. I agree with you on that aspect, undeployed guns should turn faster. This doesn't have anything to do with your eyes. It has to do with pulling in things into explicit player control that don't belong there in a game of this scale. Nope, what he said has to do something with his eyes. I have perfectly good eyesight and i dont have any problems in determining wether my guns are deployed or not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 The only thing that this makes better is that you probably have no medium towed guns in there that right now require excessive babysitting. Not sure I understand this and considering how confusing this thread has gotten I probably don't. I had thought we were discussing all crew served weapons and I was agreeing with Rake specifically about why I would or wouldn't deploy mortars and MGs in response to Jason's questioning why anyone would not deploy. What has that got to do with medium towed guns? Yes I get they have their own deploying/packing up issues but that was not what I was commenting on nor was Rake. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Not sure I understand this and considering how confusing this thread has gotten I probably don't. I had thought we were discussing all crew served weapons and I was agreeing with Rake specifically about why I would or wouldn't deploy mortars and MGs in response to Jason's questioning why anyone would not deploy. What has that got to do with medium towed guns? Yes I get they have their own deploying/packing up issues but that was not what I was commenting on nor was Rake. Redwolf apparently has multiple concerns about towed crew served weapons and it seems to me that he has mixed them together and mixed them with infantry crew served weapons in a confusing way. At least I am confused. As near as I have been able to work out, he is angry over (1) the amount of time it takes the crew to turn a towed weapon around; (2) that a towed weapon cannot simply be reversed by its crew; (3) that the crew cannot automatically reposition a towed weapon to get an LOF on a target. Now, I am not sure I have that all right or that there isn't more that he means to say about the topic. But that's what I have gleaned so far. What he says about infantry crew served weapons doesn't make any sense at all to me, so I am not even going to try for an interpretation of that. If any of the above is wrong, then I apologize, but that's the best I could make of it. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Noticed that the British 2" mortar teams automatically deploy at end of movement plot. The unit display shows 19 sec deploy, 14 sec pack up. The first is accurate. But there is no Packing Up delay. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Redwolf apparently has multiple concerns about towed crew served weapons and it seems to me that he has mixed them together and mixed them with infantry crew served weapons in a confusing way. At least I am confused. As near as I have been able to work out, he is angry over (1) the amount of time it takes the crew to turn a towed weapon around; (2) that a towed weapon cannot simply be reversed by its crew; (3) that the crew cannot automatically reposition a towed weapon to get an LOF on a target. Now, I am not sure I have that all right or that there isn't more that he means to say about the topic. But that's what I have gleaned so far. What he says about infantry crew served weapons doesn't make any sense at all to me, so I am not even going to try for an interpretation of that. If any of the above is wrong, then I apologize, but that's the best I could make of it. Michael Your summarizing skills need some polishing. I think that: the very basic turn rates (outside pivot) of towed guns do not match expectations (formed e.g. with youtube videos). packup time is useless in theory and right now it is outright harmful because it adds to the time already needed to turn the gun before you can move it back out the way it came. Exposure time on the top of the crest right now is multiple times what it would be packup time - have you ever seen a M1919 crew pick up their weapon? The gunner just rips it out of the tripod after a twist, the next guy picks up the tripod and off they go. They barely stand still at all. A too long packup time is a realism problem, and a bigger problem than a too short packup time. nobody wants to get rid of deploy time So in conclusion since packup time is at best useless and right now outright harmful it should just be deleted, leaving setup time. But if you have modeled setup time without packup time then you don't need the deploy command since you can just auto-deploy at the end of a movement path. In general, if you ask yourself whether some piece of computer code in a program is useful or not you should probably delete or skip it. It just wastes CPU cycles at best but almost all computer code has bugs, so who knows what else is lurking. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Noticed that the British 2" mortar teams automatically deploy at end of movement plot. The unit display shows 19 sec deploy, 14 sec pack up. The first is accurate. But there is no Packing Up delay. Yupp. morewords 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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