M5 carriage with 105mm Howitzer?

[Sequoia]

Was there ever such a beast? I seem to remember CMBO having one but its been a few years since I've played it so I'm no longer certain. Thanks.

[Pak40]

That was the Priest, so nicknamed because of the pulpit like compartment that stuck out of it. Anyway, I think it was in the armored artillery units.

[YankeeDog]

The M7 Priest was originally produced on a modified M3 Grant chassis, but production was moved over to a design based on the M4 Sherman chassis fairly quickly. AFAIK, there was never a widely manufactured U.S. WWII AFV put a 105mm gun on an M5 Stuart Chassis. ISTR that there was some R&D done on such a gun/chassis combo, but I don't think such a design ever entered full production, much less saw combat.

There is of course, the M8 "Scott" HMC, which was built off of the M5 Chassis; this AFV did see service in the ETO and is available in CMBN. But the M8 HMC mounts a modified 75mm pack howitzer in an open-topped turret, not a 105mm gun.

[Michael Emrys]

Was there ever such a beast?

You piqued my curiosity, so I looked into Chamberlain & Ellis and found that there were two experimental types with weapons larger than 75 mm, but they were both mortars and they never got beyond the testing stage. The T27 mounted an 81 mm mortar and the T29 a 4.2". The problem with both of those models was that there was not sufficient interior room in the vehicles for the crews to operate efficiently. I would imagine that would be vastly worse with a 105 mm howitzer.

Michael

[MikeyD]

There was the airborne 105mm howitzer M3, sort of a hybrid 105mm howitzer/75mm pack howitzer . There were plans drawn up to fit it to a T30 halftrack, I don't know if it was ever actually attempted. It looks like that big square breech block would've pretty much fill an M8 HMC fighting compartment so that would be a non-starter.

[JasonC]

The T19 howitzer motor carriage mounted a 105mm howitzer on an M3 half track chassis. 324 were built.

The standard HMC on a light tank chassis was the M8, with just a 75mm howitzer. The M3 GMC had a French 75 howitzer on the M3 halftrack chassis.

I can imagine some confusion about the M5 designation because the M5 halftrack replaced / supplemented the M3 model halftrack, just as the M5 Stuart replace the previous M3 Stuart. The M naming system is never really meant to be used without specifying the item type being numbered, and for chassis this gets particularly crazy. M3 light tank chassis, 75mm SP, isn't M3 halftrack chassis 75mm SP, isn't M3 medium tank chassis, 105mm SP (that's the Priest).

The only other larger caliber weapon on a light tank chassis was the M41, a 155mm self propelled late war item that used the M24 light tank chassis. But that isn't a 105 nor a Stuart tank base.

The T19 is probably what was meant, unless the original was confused about the variety of Priest chassis (first M3, then M4 as well, but both medium tank M3s and M4s, not light tanks M3s and M5s)...

[YankeeDog]

Ah; yes... good call, JasonC; it may well be that the OP is looking for a halftrack-mounted 105mm, not a full-track mounted one. The "M" designation system strikes again!

If it's a halftrack-mounted 105mm we're looking for, I don't think any T19s served in the ETO as the design had long since been supplanted by the M7 by the time of the Normandy landings. So while I don't recall specifically, I don't think the T19 was available in CMBO and it would not be appropriate for inclusion in CMBN. However, T19 certainly served in North Africa/The Med, and while I don't recall for sure, they were probably available in CMAK. It might be appropriate for inclusion in CMFI, then, depending on exactly when they were withdrawn from service. I don't know offhand whether any actually made it from North Africa to Italy or not...

[Sequoia]

Thanks all for your replies. Actually it was a Stuart M-5 chassis I was inquiring about but the T-19 info is interesting. The reason for my question originated because, just for fun, I'm making counters for my first introduction to grognardism decades ago -Panzerblitz. On the Imaginative Strategist website, I found two sets of counters for the M-8 with a Stuart chassis. One had a High Explosive attack factor of 5 which is standard for a 75mm gun, but there is another set with a High Explosive attack factor of 10. There are no notes as to exactly what the counters represent and I wasn't sure if it meant a Stuart chassis with a 105mm or the 75mm being used in indirect fire. After your posts I now believe it to be the latter.

[MikeyD]

There's so much in the US arsenal named 'M5'. If you saw a passing reference it could have been referencing the unarmored M5 artillery tractor which would tow a 105mm gun. There's also the M5 bayonet, the M5 light tank, the M5 60mm mortar, the M5 half-track, the M5 truck, M5 smoke pot, and the M5 tool box.

[Sgt Schultz]

.. the EM-50 Urban Assault Vehicle ...

[Buq-Buq]

There was a late-war U.S. project to mount the lightweight M3A1 105mm howitzer on the M5A1 Light Tank chassis: the T82 Howitzer Motor Carriage. It was, in effect — and very much in looks — a miniature M7 (HMC) Priest. The gun was the lightweight version of the gun pictured above by MikeyD. The vehicle appeared as several pilot models only, and never was standardized and did not go into production. There are two pages on it and some pictures in Hunnicutt’s Stuart.

Since it never saw action, I doubt if this is the vehicle that you were thinking of, Sequoia.

Mark

sort-of Edit: Sgt Schultz: I think that was a different war.

[John Kettler]

Or, you could just look at this. MUCH cheaper than one of those splendid Hunnicutt books!

http://jedsite.info/tanks-mike/mike-number-us/m5_light_series/t82/t82-intro.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

There was the airborne 105mm howitzer M3, sort of a hybrid 105mm howitzer/75mm pack howitzer . There were plans drawn up to fit it to a T30 halftrack, I don't know if it was ever actually attempted. It looks like that big square breech block would've pretty much fill an M8 HMC fighting compartment so that would be a non-starter.

I think another problem with regard to fitting a howitzer in as opposed to a mortar is allowing clearance for the recoil of the former.

Michael