Guest Big Time Software Posted August 31, 1999 Share Posted August 31, 1999 Last we heard from Fionn was about his intentions for the next 10 turns or so. This battle has had two distinct phases so far, and now we are just entering the second. Should be really fun to watch Fionn try and REtake that town! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted August 31, 1999 Share Posted August 31, 1999 I really like the screenshot (kelly12ct.jpg) showing your forces arraying in the center of the battlefield to fire into the town. Way cool. What do you think are your chances? Also, what things are you really afraid of, and what things could happen that would force you to make a major rethink? DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 31, 1999 Share Posted August 31, 1999 Chances: Poor... I don't have sufficient infantry to take the town unless Martin is stupid and moves his infantry outside of the defensive zone of the town AND I get lucky and kill lots of defenders with my artillery. I reckon he has 8 platoons in the town. I have, at most, 4 left... Thus I need to kill 4 platoons with my artillery, MG, mortar and direct tank fire to even the odds some. Even then, attacking a town with parity of forces isn't a smart thing to do.. The appearance of an entire company to my south and then the appearance of another entire company behind me both totally unhinged my defensive plans for the town. Things that scare me: i Artillery, ii. Jabos (he could kill an entire infantry platoon or a couple of tanks with just one hit) iii. the appearance of a platoon of Sherman's on my flanks as my tanks shoot up the village and those Shermans wiping out my tank force. iv. yet more bloody infantry for the Americans.. He's got an entire battalion in that town. This means I'm outnumbered 3 to 1 in sheer infantry numbers (although only two to one in tactical units) and that's going to be hard to grind down. One scenario running through my mind is using my HTs and tanks to simply run up to houses and smash the defenders to pieces with MG fire.. I don't know how succesful that will be in the face of what are sure to be strong bazooka defences though. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darstand Posted August 31, 1999 Share Posted August 31, 1999 Non Combat Mission related question. I have been researching the Close Combat series, looking for a game to hold me over until Combat Mission comes out. I can't decide between CC2 and CC3. I would like your opinion on these games. I want to get CC3 but I hear that the AI is incredibly weak do you know if this has been fixed (patched)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Marks Posted August 31, 1999 Share Posted August 31, 1999 Dar, get CC2. I think it is much better than CC3. I was a beta tester for CC3 and although I like some of the new features in the game, CC2 provides a more coherent representation of combat. With CC2 you fight battles or operations that give you a feeling of influencing the big picture. The Grand Campaign in CC2 is great. Trying to decide who gets supply is very difficult. In CC3, there is no feeling of cohesion. You are simply taking men from one disjointed battle to another. That is my opinion. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 31, 1999 Share Posted August 31, 1999 I second the vote for CC2. I didn't buy CC3 on purpose because it seemed to take the flaws of CC2 and make them oh so much worse. I found CC2 to be a very enjoyable game, even if I had to sometimes chuckle or swear AT the system instead of WITH it The Grand Campaign is generally very well done. But you can hit loops that will bore any sane person to tears (I played the same map something like 15 times almost in a row, slaughtering the poor Allies to peices without hardly a loss). Ah, but enough of that... If I didn't own CC2 now I would certainly still buy it. That is a pretty good endorsement. CC3? Didn't buy it then and not going to buy it now Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 I third that. CC3 left me incredibly unimpressed. CC2 with some of the realpara patches which can be gotten at http://cc2.gamestats.com is a good buy IMO. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Man, Fionn, things aren't looking too good. The Amis are probably going to own the town by Turn 15 (latest). What sort of plan do you have to kick them back out? They seem to outnumber you pretty heavily in infantry, and those are the important dudes in house-house fighting. You mentioned before "waiting until they seem to be positioned in the edge houses and then shelling the crap out of them." Does this still hold true? HOPEfully those rockets you've been saving will be effective against big, stationary targets like houses. Best of Luck DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 How far along are you in the battle? I know there's a lag between you guys completing a turn and the AAR being posted on TGN. You or Steve or Martin mentioned somewhere Turn 15; are you that far? DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zackary Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Greetings, Fionn, I've been rooting for your underdog Germans the whole way. Up until Turn 10 or so, you'd been resisting repeated suggestions that you really speed up your entire advance, especially in the north. In turns 11-13 (roughly), it seems you took a few more chances (in the center and south) and it has cost you fairly dearly. In retrospect, should you have been more patient and taken perhaps two extra turns to clear the south and center, should you have been more aggressive and stormed those positions sooner, or are you content with the decisions you made? In the city, I understand that you could not have known the enemies numbers and the arrival location of their reinforcements, but it seems like a substantial number of your men have been killed or captured while attempting to relocate. Should your initial lines of resistance in the town been more restricted to limit the amount of movement your troops would have had to do, or would that have simply allowed the Americans to advance quicker and been ultimately more detrimental? Finally, how suicidal would it have been to take a big gamble in the opening turns and to send the bulk of your city forces north to clear out the northern hill, then return to defend the city? Could something like that have worked? It's difficult for me to judge. Thank you, - Zackary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 We're up to turn 18 but Martin's going away for a day on Thursday and I'll be away for most of Friday so during those two days you'll surely catch up with exactly where we are. I've just sent in my write-up of Turn 14 (took me 3 and a half hours to do since I had to check a lot of things).. I'm writing an article today also which should appear sometime soon and I intend to do turns 15 and 16 tomorrow (thursday) which should bring everyone up to turn 16 by Friday. Since I doubt we'll be beyond Turn 19 by Friday that'll represent a good bit of catching up and hopefully by the weekend we can all be together again again. The last few turns have been VERY hectic and suffice it to say that by turn 18 I'm hunkering in foxholes again.. Damned American materialschlacht Zackary: 1. YES I should have re-organised and waited to have the entire company of units in position in the south. As it was, instead of waiting 2 turns and attacking with a company I attacked with a weak platoon from two separate platoons and payed the price. C&C is a major thing in CM. However, I will state that the reason I didn't halt is because of what Martin's artillery had just done to me. He'd butchered two of my assault thrusts and, I know you won't understand this since you haven't played CM, the fact that you SEE in 3D what happens to your units and men DOES seem to make more of an emotional impact. I'm pretty used to seeing arty hit in other games but it never really bothered me. In CM though seeing a unit running around in panic and being blasted apart really does "impact emotionally". Hard to explain.. Just wait until you have a comapny being blasted apart by artillery though and you'll see what I mean . immersion is a big plus of this system. If I had the city to do over again I would have withdrawn my platoons into the apartment complexes. I would have placed MGs on the top floors facing north and south and placed a few squads into the houses just in front of the apartment complex so as to slow the enemy down a little. Then I would have simply waited and hacked his advancing units apart. Once they got close enough to begin causing casualties I would have withdrawn into the depths of the apartment buildings and forced him to come in after me. I could have bled him dry if I'd done that BUT this is the first time we've had a large city fight in Combat Mission so I was making decisions based on what happened in other games.. This isn't a good thing to do in Combat Mission since it is much more realistic than those games IMO and so doing things a gamey way will get you killed I should have just created a very small but strong perimeter and invited him in. As he assaulted me and I slowed him I should have hammered each attacking force with artillery and mortars to attrit them even more and eventually force him to accede the apartment complex to me. Then, when my tanks advanced HE would have been caught between two forces. I made major errors in this scenario but in the next one I will have learnt from these and the shoe will probably be on the other foot .. (In fact, I've already made a new cityfighting scenario in which a German battalion with heavy flamethrower/engineer support attacks 2 US companies and challenged Martin to be the Germans )... We'll see if he has enough time to play that one ) last question: It would have been utter suicide. Martin would simply have rushed the village and would have called down artillery all over the hill to the north and would have massacred me in a much quicker time. I am confident that after the experience of this battle I would deploy differently and would be able to hold Martin much better. But, unfortunately, I didn't have this experience before this and so made some bad deployments. (Redeploying under fire and the attack to the south were my two joint worst mistakes.) ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darstand Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Armchair Generals never lose any men. I think the defense of the town was done correctly. If you would have concentrated your troops too much in a few buildings; Martian would have simply put allot of arty fire into the buildings before assaulting (I am assuming this can be done). Your troops getting caught out in the open during Martians shelling was just bad luck. The only bonehead move I have seen is the counterattack you did as he assaulted the town. If Martian does seize the town, What is to keep you from using HE rounds from your FIVE Panthers, to level a few buildings. I am sure my ignorance is shining through here. ------------------ "Armchair Generals never lose any men"-Darstand [This message has been edited by Darstand (edited 09-01-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Darstand, I believe that is exactly Fionn's plan. His tanks have, between them, ~100 HE shells left, plus whatever arty he's saved. If he can ID the buildings which Martin is using for the linchpins of his defense, the German arty should be able to reduce those houses to rubble (akin to what happened to Fionn's guys in the house on the east edge of town earlier) only on a much larger scale. Best, DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 1, 1999 Share Posted September 1, 1999 Doug, Yep, that's the plan.. Let Martin hold the town.. Pummel his outer positions in the outer houses with tank fire, herd his infantry towards the apartment complex as the outer houses are reduced to rubbleand then drop arty all over it Martin won't like that... At least.. that was the plan as of Turn 14.. By turn 18 things have changed a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Oberly Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Fionn- Just wanted to say thanks for the heavy screenshot(and captioned screenshots) usage in the last few AAR's.I know it's been more work,but it's really been nice.Especially the room to room fighting. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Fionn, You said this in your last turn: "Panzerschreck’s shouldn’t be able to fire from inside houses though but I think that’s going to be fixed. " Why on earth wouldn't a Panzerschreck be able to be fired from a house? It seems perfectly logical that it could be fired from a house. Bigtime, what are your intentions on this subject? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 NP.. The extra captioning etc is what's taking me such much longer and is why the rate of posting has slowed a little. Still, if people are enjoying them more then it seems to work out well enough. Ps. Turn 18: I ordered my arty to blast the town apart.. Turns 20 + should be VERY interesting to read from Martin's POV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Pak, I was wondering that myself. If its not going to be allowed in CM, Im sure there is a realistic reason. Maybe to do with back blast and concussion? Also, I had a feeling that this was actually meaning no fire from one room to another but Im not sure.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Fox Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Pak40, I'm a bit perplexed at that to as I have read of plenty of instances of panzerfausts at least being fired from inside buildings. I thought it was just that they couldn't be fired within the building, ie room to room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Pak, your fellow Ozzie is right here. The problem was that Fionn fired a Panzerschreck and (I think) a Panzerfaust INSIDE to another target INSIDE. The construction of a building interior would not allow for the backblast or the detonation blast. Firing out a window, with nobody behind you, that would work just fine in real life. In CM any nearby friendly units are forced to hit the dirt when a PF, PS, or Bazooka is used inside. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Umm. Chalk that up to a typo on my part. I know bazookas can be fired from inside houses but I was thinking of my PF firing insidea house at another point inside a house, got wires crossed etc... ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Talley Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Hi Fionn, Have you had the opportunity to use crawl or sneak commands for your infantry? Do you think you will have a chance/need to use those commands in this battle? Also is a pinned unit able to fire or capable of just reduced fire? Or are there several levels of reduced fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 I'll take that last one... Pinned is really pinned. The unit isn't doing anything but trying to figure out what the Hell they are going to do next. If the fire lifts off of them (passing shell, enemy looses interest, etc.) they will get back into firing position depending on their experience level. Vets will pop right back up, Conscripts might stay down longer. Before pinned there are several levels of "supression" which reduce firepower and mess with some other factors. States like "Alerted" and "Cautious" for example mean "respect for incomming" and "duck and shoot". Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixman Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 Fionn and Steve: A couple of times, when Fionn wrote about needing to pause to reorganize, the spontaneous battle ending (based on situation/activity) built into the AI crossed my mind. I didn't figure it would happen because the town was still being heavily fought over. But, if Martin had already taken full control of the town (i.e. no more fighting there) and Fionn paused at the wall line for a few turns to regroup, would the AI start to consider ending the battle? Just curious as to how much pressure is on Fionn to keep advancing with the relief force. ------------------ The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted September 2, 1999 Share Posted September 2, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As a precaution against American shelling I have ordered the twelve American prisoners into the dip also so that the American commander will hesitate to order an artillery barrage for fear of killing his own men.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Fionn, do not introduce that style of playing, please ! It is only a game after all ! Regards, Thomm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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