Checking LOS at setup? Suggested option...

[Lt Bull]

Hi,

I think this is a long time issue even with CMx1. Never bothered posting about it, but after playing the Scottish Corridor operation, there were critical occasions where this affected battle outcomes too much.

You might try check LOS from a setup position (typically from a tank/AT gun) to some other spot on the battlefield but it might tell you it is blocked, usually because of intervening foliage/grass/shrubs etc. When you do this I am sure the end of the LOS tool is actually located right at ground level, therefore not really providing you with the kind of practical LOS information you really want to know because you are typically wanting to know if you could practically spot an object (man/vehicle) that is not FLAT on the ground at that spot but one that has height above ground, say between 1m and 1.7m.

So what ends up happening in game is that LOS to practical targets appear where "mock" LOS checks previously may have suggested NO LOS. Very annoying for the player.

Any work arounds for this? I could image an LOS tool that had at least a toggle that allowed the target end of the LOS tool floated 1m to 1.5m above the level of the ground, therefore emulating LOS to target with real height.

Comments?

Bull

[Vanir Ausf B]

The only work around I have found is to set the camera on the spot you want to check LOS from at view level 2 for infantry or 3 for tanks and then using the zoom function look at the spot you want to check. If you can see it visually you will probably have LOS regardless of what the target tool says, in my experience.

[womble]

As Vanir says, there's no substitute for actually checking by eye. One additional help, though, might be to plot a movement point for a unit type similar to that which you're hoping (or not) to see at the given point, and see whether that can look back at where you're hoping to shoot from (or hide). LOS is determined from the height of the spotting unit at the time of the test, so if you put a tank waypoint in the questionable location and it can see the ground you'll be shooting from, it will probably be able to see anything taller.

Still, it's best to look, and even then you're not guaranteed to see exactly what the pTruppen do; I have had a couple of times in my current game where I thought an AT team would be able to see a passing tank, but was mistaken; I blame the cornfield.

Edit: it's one of the few advantages the AI has; it's good at finding miniscule LOS gaps.

[Lt Bull]

As Vanir says, there's no substitute for actually checking by eye.

Hmmm, you think I trust the fidelity of the CMx2 graphics engine that much? Especially when it comes to trying to look through/past/near foliage, I have found it is more random/unpredictable than anything else. It's not that much less abstract than CMx1.

One additional help, though, might be to plot a movement point for a unit type similar to that which you're hoping (or not) to see at the given point, and see whether that can look back at where you're hoping to shoot from (or hide).

Hmm, haven't tried this. Will see how it goes.

Still, if the LOS tool could have an adjustable "height" from ground setting (maybe cycle it from 0m, 1m , 1.5m with a keystroke) it would make usage of the LOS tool much more relevant to the players needs. At the moment I would say the majority of the LOS checks made by the LOS tool are misleading/irrelevant to what the player really wants to know.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Hmmm, you think I trust the fidelity of the CMx2 graphics engine that much? Especially when it comes to trying to look through/past/near foliage, I have found is more random/unpredictable than anything else.

But as you pointed out the target tool has it's own limitations. If you want alternatives available right now rather than in a hoped-for future version I say ignore the visual check at your peril. I have lost a couple of tanks when I chose to believe the target tool over what my eyes told me.

[chas_in_mlb]

But as you pointed out the target tool has it's own limitations.

Like how a low hedge blocks your LOS to the building behind it?

Tank Commander: "Bn HQ thinks that that building just ahead of me is an enemy position. Let's pump a couple of HE rounds into it and see."

Gunner: "Sorry, skip. No can do. There's a hedge in the way. That would negatively affect property values."

Tank Commander"So we should wait until an MG in that building mows down half a squad?"

Gunner"Uhhh... yeah, that should be fine."

[womble]

Like how a low hedge blocks your LOS to the building behind it?

Tank Commander: "Bn HQ thinks that that building just ahead of me is an enemy position. Let's pump a couple of HE rounds into it and see."

Gunner: "Sorry, skip. No can do. There's a hedge in the way. That would negatively affect property values."

Tank Commander"So we should wait until an MG in that building mows down half a squad?"

Gunner"Uhhh... yeah, that should be fine."

To be fair, that's less a fault of the targeting tool than that aspect of the targeting model... which is decidely... limited.

[Hister]

What is a default key for zoom?

[mjkerner]

X and Z keys zoom in and out. I assume those are default because I haven't edited the keyboardandthose are the ones that zoom in my setup.

[Hister]

Thanx! Missed that it is possible to do that...

[chas_in_mlb]

To be fair, that's less a fault of the targeting tool than that aspect of the targeting model... which is decidely... limited.

Isn't that the same thing???

[Paper Tiger]

When you do this I am sure the end of the LOS tool is actually located right at ground level, therefore not really providing you with the kind of practical LOS information you really want to know because you are typically wanting to know if you could practically spot an object (man/vehicle) that is not FLAT on the ground at that spot but one that has height above ground, say between 1m and 1.7m.

There's the nub of it. That is how it works. If there is no actual enemy unit sitting in that location, you are tracing LOS to the ground level of that action spot. Therefore, LOS might be blocked to a unit prone on the ground (level 0) in that square but not to a level 2 or 3 tank. It's better to test LOS to the obstructing terrain first and apply a bit of common sense to what it potentially will block behind it.

[womble]

Isn't that the same thing???

Not quite. The tool is accurate; it reflects the model.

[Hister]

PT, just yesterday I got a strange occurance where one MG team and one tank were able to spot enemy SPG very far away through numerous hedges and trees. Montebourg campaign, 5th scenario. Zoom revealed there was no way target could have been seen, period. Need screenshoots for proof?

[womble]

I think that sort of "oddity" has been submitted for examination before. It's not really an oddity, though, since foliage-LOS-blocking often doesn't seem to work quite how it's represented on the screen.

[Hister]

Needs fixing then!

[Redwolf]

I addition to that oddity we also had issues with ground versus non-ground spotting and surprising LOS. So a free LOS tool is less useful than it sounds, unless you can also tell it to do height.